Texas Hold'em: Are my tenants breaking TOS?

I own a number of rental islands, and so long as my tenants are good neighbors to each other and don't engage in terms-of-service violations, they're free to do as they please. Well last night I noticed a couple of uncharacteristic throngs of green dots on one of my islands. (Usually you'll just see one or two on a given parcel.) I flew around to investigate, and the first thing I noticed was that both parcels had traffic in the thousands. (This is REALLY uncharacteristic for my residential tenants.) Pretty soon, in both places I discovered my tenants had put up Texas Hold'em tables, and they were well-populated.

Now I know LL has guidelines for what violates TOS, and I know they won't give any specifics. But I really don't know anything about Texas Hold'em (in RL or SL), so I don't know whether the guidelines apply.

Does anyone here know whether Texas Hold'em is a no-no in SL, or have you heard of any such tables being returned by Linden Lab?

(As an aside, I'm a little miffed at one tenant. She had some people with her when she first rented the parcel asking a bunch of questions about what was allowed, and I specifically mentioned gambling as being prohibited. This same tenant had hidden her Texas Hold'em table in a featureless opaque box about 600m in the sky, so I have a feeling she was intentionally hiding it from me. The other tenant just had his table in his livingroom.)

Yep, they are breaking TOS.

If I'm not mistaken, they're free to play Texas Hold 'em, providing no one is wagering money. If they're betting, then its a TOS violation.

More details on the Gambling policy here:

http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/08/09/anti-gambling-policy-update-faq/

Specifically:

Q: What about games in which no Linden dollars or other “consideration” is accepted?

A: If entry is truly “free” (as with a promotional sweepstakes), and the game’s operator requires no “consideration” or payment from other players or entrants, then that activity will likely be permitted, assuming compliance with all other applicable laws.

$20 says they are wagering money.

I see your $20 and raise you to $30

$20 they get booted

Here is a "Texas Hold'em" table that does not have anything to do with L$, just allows people to play the game for no payout:
http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=228345

I have always kind of wondered about the gray area ... groups of SL friends who gather and play poker with all bets and antes done only as chat promises, and a 'gentlemen's agreement' to pay each other. If there is no fee for entering the game, the table/game manager does not collect money or payout, I don't think it qualifies as gambling, regardless of what the individual avatars may exchange between each other.

However, if the person running the game is actually collecting L$ and then distributing them, via script or even just manually, that would be gambling.

It sounds, however, by the number of avatars involved, that this might be a commercial enterprise. Maybe you should have an alt of yours *buy* a nearby parcel, ask about the game, and see what's really going on
.

You know, I might just visit their tables as an alt and try to join a game, just to see if it requires money to be put in, or if it says anything about paying the proprietor. One of these tenants has been a really great customer, and I'd like to let him run the table so long as it doesn't expose either of us legally or TOS-wise. He's also a reasonable guy, so I'm not worried about approaching him once I've got more information.

Thanks, all.

Oh wow, the maker's an old friend of mine! I'll talk to her about it as well.

Poker was explicitly named as a banned gambling game when gambling was banned by Linden Lab, so I would say yes, if they are wagering anything at all and getting any sort of 'winnings', they are violating the gambling ban.

Playing for play chips is fine - ie zero money is changing hands.

I bet you anything though, that at least the tenant who has hidden her table in the skybox is playing for money. Otherwise why hide it? Stupid, trying to hide something like that when any idiot can see the mass of green dots on the minimap. (not that the OP is an idiot - it's a figure of speech! sheesh)

Does anyone know what LL's stance would be regarding the landowner? If you rent land to someone and they violate the TOS seriously enough to get themselves banned, is there any liability for the landowner, assuming the landowner was not directly participating in the violation? Does it change if the landowner knew of the violation and took no steps to correct it or report it?

To be fair, it could be a table which is free to play but which she only wants her and her friends to be able to use.

"But officer, it's not my meth lab, I was just RENTING my garage..."

Depends on the severity, I'm sure.

If some random noob set a Texas Hold'Em table out on Ordinal's lawn and ran, I get the feeling that we wouldn't be Busted, reality-tv style, and hauled off to the cornfield without a little bit of investigation first.

but we`re talking about LL in this case

It would be hilarious if you were. I can only imagine you and Ordinal in cuffs. Better yet, whatever sort of contraption Ordinal would concoct to spring you from the big house would be really impressive.

At any rate the question wasn't so much what some random newb dumps on your property when you aren't looking, but what sort of ongoing activities from your tenants would require you, as the landowner, to take action. Assume the games in this thread are illegal - Lindens are being bet. Assume the OP has irrefutable proof of it and takes no action. What does LL do to her? I'm guessing not much, but it would be interesting to see their position.

The day LL bans meth is the day I leave.

I do my best to stay above-board, because disciplinary action in SL often seems to be arbitrary. I'd rather not have anything to worry about than have a potential gray-area situation on my hands, where a Linden having a bad day might consider me complicit in illegal activities.

Well, that's exactly it. RL rules don't apply in SL, so you don't want some Linden who got in a fight with her husband before work and spilled her coffee on her official LL lab coat to wander by and decide to drop the hammer on everyone. There doesn't seem to be any policy. In RL, it's all over the place and the rules differ depending on the type of offense and the location. It would be nice to have a statement from LL that said that if a landlord isn't involved in the activity or runing the illegal business, then LL won't take action against the landlord.

The only way playing Hold'em is legal is if it is for free.

(Strip poker is for free )

More likely than not they are playing for money and it is a TOS violation.

As to what would happen to you if Linden Lab found out, I can tell you from an informed position that Linden Lab would not take any action against you as the landlord. LL just wants to protect itself by showing policing effort on its gambling policy so it basically limits the actions to the actual account that owns the VGA table. LL does not punish or take action against the players. The first offense is usually only a warning to the VGA table owner. The second offense usually results in a ban for a limited period of time for the table owner. If LL doesn't take action against the players then it is highly improbable it would take action against the landlord.

It's your land so it's up to you what you want to do and I would imagine they are violating their covenant with you but if your primary concern is what could happen to you if Linden Lab busts the room you shouldn't worry.

Isn't this what happens in real life when governments ban gambling? When it's illegal to run a gambling establishment, and none are available to patronize, people will gamble at home around a card table with friends.

The question you have to ask is, whose business is it to report? if you lived in a city where gambling was illegal, would your landlord come bust up your card game? No it's the cops. You call the cops and teh cops come bust up the game.

That is, assuming, you beleive personally in the law. This is the main reason why drug laws don't work well in RL, because so many average people look the other way. (or take a drag and pass on the joint).

That's the problem with sin laws. They require snitches to enforce them. How much do you want to concern yourself with the actions of your tenants? how much is it really your responsibilty, what they do? You don't own the objects, they do. And to be honest, how much do you really want to police people? The moment you set yourself up as judge, is the moment you become legally liable if you're wrong.

If it were me, and a one or two table "impromptu game night" then I'd probably look the other way. But when they're opening a casino... well that's where it becomes a "land use" issue.

Much the same as any other behaviour. There's a difference between "having some friends over to have a sexual interaction" versus "opening a sex club". "setting up a vendor so a couple of friends could get a discount on something you sell" versus "opening a store".

I wasn't there, I can't say what was going on.

Are any of the players half clothed or even naked? They may be playing strip poker. I hope that's still allowed.

Strip Poker can still be a gamble.