Group land puzzles me, should I or I should I not deed?

Hello everyone:

I have read the Knowledge Base articles on group owned land, and I understand the concept. I am trying to decide if I should form a group and deed my land to it, or if that would be of no benefit. I've tried to find the answers to my questions, but so far have not had any luck. If I have missed relevant threads, please point me to them!

So, here is my situation:

I have a premium account, and currently my tier level allows me to own 16384 sq m.

I donated my "premium" 512 sq m to a group before I owned any land on my own. I want them to keep that donation, so no matter what happens I am not changing that.

After that donation, I bought land on a mainland sim. I am the sole owner of that land. It totals 12544 sq m, but since I am trying to sell a portion of that, lets call it 9728 sq m.

I have had some issues with neighbors rezzing items on my property, which can be a nuisance. I am also considering dividing the land into parcels and renting at least some of it. In both cases, putting the land under a group would help things, since I could set it so that only group members (friends, renters, etc.) could rezz objects.

Here is where I get confused. I am not sure if there is any benefit to deeding my personal property to my group or not. I know that if I do so, I could own 10% more land before moving up in tier payments. So, I tried to use the calculator under Land Management to figure out how much land I would have left if I donated additional tier. No matter what numbers I put in, I get bumped up a tier payment. I cannot afford to go up in tier at all, and I don't want to accidentally bump myself up a level and have to pay for it or haggle with SL to get it corrected. I've been trying to puzzle this out, but am not sure what I am missing.

So, to start off:

1) Can I donate land to more than one group at a time?

2) Can I donate land to a group where I am the founder, and perhaps even the sole donor?

Assuming the answer to both of the above is yes...

3) How many sq m should I allot to my group so that I do not call out the Linden Land watchdogs and lose some of my property? Or, am I misunderstanding, and I need to increase how much I allot personally, not how much is owned by the group?

4) If I donate to the group I founded and where I own the land (assuming that will work at all), how much land can I own total without going up in tier, including my 512 premium sq m which is donated to the other group?


Any help with this at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

take care,
Aidin

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) Watchdogs?

4) You can own 16384m + 10% = 18022m. The free 512 tier doesn't come into it, so you can actually own 18022 + that free 512 = 18534m.

There are some things to remember:-

1) Create an alt and have it join the group as well as you. A group with only one member will be removed in a few days and its assets (the land) will revert to Govenor Linden. You'd be able to get it back, but it would need some messing about and waiting so it's better not to risk it.

2) Remember to deed the land "with tier", or the group won't have the tier to support the land.

3) When you buy land, you are told very clearly, in red, if buying it will increase your tier level, so you can't really make a mistake with that. You are also told in green that your tier level won't increase if that's the case.

The 10% bonus doesn't show up on the webpage, it only shows up when you donate the tier to the group.

Keep in mind too that the 10% bonus only applies to land owned by the group. As an example say you have 10,000 sq. m. in tier free, and you want to purchase 11,000 sq. m. of land, taking advantage of the 10% bonus.

If you buy 11,000 sq. m. of land solely for yourself, not for your group, you will be bumped up to the next tier level.

In order to max out your land and include extra land thanks to the 10% bonus, you must go into About Land and choose the Buy For Group button there, rather than merely right-clicking the land and buying it like you would normally do.

Another benefit of deeding land to a group: Group members can use set home to here to make their home property that piece of land. If you instead own it yourself, nobody can do this but yourself.

Thanks, everyone, this helps a lot!

Argent: Now I get why the calculator isn't answering as I thought it would, and the math as shown to me here makes a lot more sense.

RockAndRoll: Thank you very much, I keep counting my "free" 512 in my calculations, and now I see where I am getting thrown off. And thanks for pointing out that I need to be sure any current lands are under the group, and any future purchases are made for that group in order to be eligible for the extra 10%.

Phil: Sorry if that little joke made no sense...by "watchdogs" I was referring to the fact that LL, if your group owns more land than it is alloted, will spot that and give a warning. If I understand correctly, you have 72 hours to correct things or they will correct it for you by removing land from the group. I don't want that to happen! (If I am incorrect on this, please let me know.)

At the moment, if I go into groups and check under the group I had thought to use for this, I am told I can contribute a max of 3840 sq m. (That happens to be how much I have left to purchase under the current tier without placing under the group.) Why is that? And how do I change it so that I can donate all of what I have at the moment, leaving room for future purchases if needed? I don't have the land set to any group at the moment.

Perhaps I should create a new group just for this? Creating an alt is one option, and I know I could have a friend or two join very quickly. I would make sure to set permissions for their membership so that they have access to use the property, but not any permissions to buy, sell or otherwise fiddle with land ownership.

Thanks again, this helps a lot! I'm not going to do anything until I am clear on it all.

Aidin

It's telling you how much tier WITHOUT the group bonus you can add donate.

To put your current land into the group then you need to go to the "About land" page, and use the "deed" button to deed it to a group you own:

* Open "About Land".
* Click "Set" next to group, select the group you want, and set it.
* Check "Allow Deed To Group"
* Check "Owner Makes Contribution With Deed" *** IMPORTANT***
* Click the "Deed" button.

This will transfer the land to the group, and donate just enough tier to the group to cover the land you transfer allowing for the 10% bonus.

Argent thanks, now I get it...I knew I was missing something!

So, using that scenario, I can go into "About Land" and deed the whole 9728 sq m parcel to the group.

If any more is purchased for and/or donated to the group, then the amount the group can own will increase automatically? (I ask because although I am selling land now, I know a parcel next door may become available in a week or two and I would love to grab it if I can! But not if I am going to mess up my tier or cause headaches for the other group members.)

I created the group I planned to use for land I was renting with an SL friend a few months ago. He doesn't have a premium account, and would not need to have many privileges with this land. I think that, to be certain of group ownership, I would be better off creating a new group and deeding it to that one. I know I can have someone else join as a member right away, and it would be another trusted friend.

Thanks so much!
Aidin

You have to "donate tier" on *each* transaction, or you need to add tier to the group before you donate or purchase the land.

Gotcha!

Okay, it's done...I am still here, sim did not blow up...I think I am all set. Thanks so much for your help Argent.

And RockandRoll and Phil, thanks again as well. All of the information I got here has been very helpful!

The "why" of it works like this:

Groups cannot actually own land in their own right. Even though we've said otherwise, it's a technical question of how we think about it and how it's worded. In order for a group to buy land, somebody among the group's members has to choose to donate their potential tier to the group. So if you can contribute a max of 3840 sq. m. to your group, then you're personally allowed to buy 3840 sq. m. of land in addition to the land you already own.

So what you would do is opt to allow a group to use your 3840 sq. m. in remaining tier at your current level, which will leave you completely maxed out on your tier. Your group could then buy land (using the Buy For Group option) to buy land, and they would get a 10% bonus, so they could actually buy 3840 plus an additional 384, for a potential total of 4224 sq. m. of land.

If you were to take the land you already own and donate it to your group, you would discover one of two things: that the amount of tier you've donated to the group is actually less than the amount of land the group owns, or else the group would be able to buy more land than they own because it would add in the 10% bonus automatically.

It can be a little bit tricky to wrap your mind around it without putting it all into practice, but it does work.

(Also adding here that all this talk about 10% bonuses only applies to the mainland; land on island estates is tier-free for these purposes, because the bonus only applies to land purchased directly from Linden Lab. Islands are a completely different question entirely.)

When you set the land to your group, be very careful with auto-return settings. If you have objects - a house, even, on the land but not deeded to the group, it will be auto-returned. It happened to me once - I think that was the worst experience I've ever had in SL.

And all this great advice (and it is!) doesn't apply to estate parcels, only mainland. Assume/hope your land is mainland, from all you've said here and the advice you've gotten.

Well, so far so good. I deeded the original land parcel to my group without any trouble. I also deeded the land I have for sale on the same sim to the group, since then it can be used to either draw prims until it is sold, or used as another place to build, land, etc. So I have 11,404 sq m donated to MY group, and 512 donated to the group to which I originally belonged. My tier has not gone up, and according to the "land use fee" page on SL's website I can acquire another 4980 sq m without going up in tier.

I made sure that the owner perms were set so I can do whatever I like in the group. The officers and members cannot do ANYTHING with regards to selling, abandoning, or changing land descriptions. Also, officers in the group cannot change group permissions, so nobody can give themselves permissions to do any of the above. (A friend of mine had a falling out with her partner, who then abandoned their land the day AFTER she had paid tier....she taught me a lot about what to check and uncheck!) Plus, at the moment only I am responsible for fees and will get anything if land is sold. So, other members will not be charged when tier is due, or get Lindens if my land is sold.

A friend of mind joined the group for the moment, and that way I know the group will stay intact and I don't have to deal with Linden Labs disbanding it for lack of members and therefore causing the land to revert back to Linden Labs.

RockandRoll, you are correct, this is hard to wrap my brain around...but it is starting to make sense. Thanks again for being so patient and explaining it all to me!

Conifer, I am going to check that setting right now, I assume it is under "about land"? That would be a horrible thing to have happen, and I don't want to even think about coping with it.

Treasure, thanks for checking, this is all on mainland. I have "owned" on estates before, as in renting a parcel that was placed in my name, and I remembered that is different from mainland. But I am glad for the reminder, because if I sell this up tomorrow and go to an estate, this is not going to work the same way at all. I don't want to forget that part!

Just make sure that everything is set to group, and that you're wearing your group tag when you build. Autoreturn is too handy.

Create an alt and have it join the group to ensure that the group isn't removed. Don't rely on other people. Too many things go wrong because of relying on other people to continue as normal.

I thought I had it all set...but of course, more land next to my plot went up for sale, heehee!

I bought 1536 sq m tonight....I want to make sure I have this right, I think I have to donate the same amount or BELOW what is allowed for the group....if I go over it I risk losing land for owning too much.

So, at the moment:

Total contribution: 17036 sq m
Total land in use: 14080 sq m
Land available: 2956 sq m
My contribution: 15488 sq m

All land is in group name, but I am the only person with perms to do anything about the land at all regarding sales, tier, etc.

My goals again are:

Do not lose land due to errors in donating land to group
Keep 512 sq m donated to other group
Do not go over current tier

I am so sorry to be a pest, but I still cannot get my brain to wrap around the math. If someone would please tell me if I am okay with regards to my goals, I would appreciate it!

Thanks again, Aidin

If you have this much land available to your group, you will not have to increase your donation in order to buy this new parcel of land. Just go into About Land and choose Buy For Group and you'll be all set. Don't forget to use that option though, so it won't be charged against your personal tier.

This means: You have donated 15488 tier to the group and with the 10% bonus of 1548, the group has a total contribution of 17036. Of that 17036, the group currently owns 14080 sq m, with 2956 sq m still available for purchasing.

Therefore, you can purchase up to 2956 "for the group" without having an impact on your current tier level.

Additional info -- since you are already contributing 15488 to this group and another 512 to another group, your total contributions right now are 16000 (unless you are also contributing to another group). That puts you in the $75 tier bracket -- and that bracket lets you own/donate up to 16384 NOT COUNTING the base 512 you get (or 16896 with the 512 included).

So, if you are not donating to another group and do not own any land yourself, then you should be able to increase your current donation to the group before hitting the next tier level -- and that will allow the group to buy even more land. So... on the line that shows your contribution of 15488, there should be another value telling you "max contribution" or something like that. That value represent the maximum that you can change the 15488 number to and still stay in your current tier level.

Then, just be sure that you always activate the proper group tag and always "buy for group" when you buy the land.

Can't emphasize this one enough. Create an alt. Make it a group owner. You and your alt are the two group owners. That way, even if EVERYONE else leaves the group, your group will not be dissolved. And if for some strange reason, you can't log into your main avatar account (it happens), you can still go in as your alt with full owner permissions.

Good luck!

I hear you on this one, and have gotten this feedback from a lot of other folks as well. I'm reluctant to set up another premium account, though...wouldn't the alt have to be a premium member in order to be a group owner? Especially since the group is dealing with owning mainland, which only premium account holders can own. Am I making the wrong assumption here?

The alt does NOT have to be a premium member. They aren't actually owning land. As long as the group has enough tier donated to cover the land owned, you are fine.

Neither of the group owners have to be premium. The only person(s) that have to be premium would be whomever is donating the tier to the group to cover the land that the group owns.

Ok, I haven't seen this and it too is very important - You mention that you have deeded some land that you have for sale. Be sure that the members (if not just you and your alt) do not receive group dividends. I forget the actual terminology and I am not inworld right now. But, I believe, unless others have contributed to the purchase of the land, that you do not want them to receive the benefits of the sale. I believe this can be set in abilities/roles.

If you do want the additional members to receive benefit of the proceeds of the sold land, then be sure that the roles indicate that.

ETA: Ok, looks like you did cover this, as I just reread one of your posts.

Princess and LittleMe, thank you both for the replies and your thoughts on this. I shall create an alt as soon as I have a moment to do so!

Tini, I see that you already clarified your concern, but thank you very much for bringing the issue to my attention. I only knew due to hearing about other people not knowing about this and regretting it later. You are correct about where to find that option, it is under abilities/roles in the group menu.