Land "ownership" issues

Let's start with the fact that I'm sick and somewhat befuddled, so make your answers in little words please.

In the past, I've "bought" land, and was able to deed it to a group. Never gave it more thought than that, because it seemed elementary.

Now I'm leasing this sim. The owners of the sim created a group of which they are the owners and I am an officer (as are a few other people). Within that group are "tenants" of the sim, my tenants and vendors, so that they can build and control their own media streams.

The blues club is going on this sim. It already has a VIP group and a Staff group. We've worked hard to get the membership on the VIP group and the very last thing I want to do is try to move them to a new group.

So it seems to me that the portion of the land that the club is going on would need to be deeded to the existing club group, so that the equipment can be deeded to the club group, or the employees won't be able to use it.

The sim owners are concerned however, that if any deeding is done, they'll lose control over the land. I totally understand the concern but how is this different than the transactions I've had in the past with renting land?

How can this be handled to give the sim owners their control and confidence, yet at the same time, allowing me to do what I need to?

If I haven't explained this well, blame the Nyquil, and ask questions.

let them join the staff group so they can keep control

but if your leasing the land, why can`t you just own it in your own group and just keep paying them tier like every where else on the grid?

as sim owners they can reclaim, terraform or just ban trough the estate tools, sounds they want to make it more complicated then it is

I know this is no help but I had a similar situation, never could get the deeded equipment to work correctly, I ended up moving. I hope you find a better solution.

If you're leasing the whole sim, I would have thought that the only concern they would have is if the land within it is 'sold'. They can disable 'land sales' within the estate tools, so that once the land is deeded to a particular group, it can not be 'sold' to another individual or group. They can also reclaim the land when ever they want.

As the person renting the sim, you also need to concern yourself with the amount of access members of the group the land is deeded to have in the 'about land' menu. You just need to make sure that the roles for which you send out invites have their perms set correctly within the group tools - unable to edit land, unable to do this, that, etc.

edit to add: all the above is based on the assumption it's a private island sim; is it?

Inviting them to the staff group, as owners, was my first thought. I have to trust them, they have to trust me.

Edit to add: They wanted it to be a group they owned. I got to choose the name, but they own the group.

It is a private sim.

Then all that I posted holds. They can never lose the land because they can reclaim it at any time, and they can avoid any possible complications associated with the 'sale' of land by disabling the ability to do so in the estate tools. Remember to be careful with which perms you grant for the roles in which you invite other people.

The owners of the sim are going to have ultimate control over the land regardless of if it is deeded to the group. They can, at the extreem, simply reclaim the land at any time.

I would suggest that the land is deeded to the group, invite the sim owners into the group as an officer (give them all the land controls they want, but as an officer, not an owner). That will allow them to do what they need ongoing, i.e. change stream, freeze/ban/eject whomever needs it, and otherwise continue to have their power over the land. And should they ever feel they need to excercise some ultimate control, they can reclaim the land at any time.

You can give an 'officer' as much power as an 'owner', the main difference being you cannot eject owners, but you can eject officers. This is incase some time in the future you move your club, perhaps have a falling-out with the current sim owners, and move to a new sim.

-Atashi

Is there some compelling reason that the land where the club will go is deeded to group at all, as opposed to owned by you as an individual? Surely the sim owners can still do everything they need without the leased parcels being owned by a group of which they are Owners. My thinking is to just have the land (and all the club equipment) be owned by you and set (not deeded) to the pre-existing club group. (Is there some reason that won't work?)

Some of the equipment has to be deeded to the same group that owns the land. In order for the employees to use it then, they would have to be in the same group as the land owners, which is not the club group. So in order to work for me, they'd have to be in three groups...a lot to ask considering the group limits.

Baaaad idea... you can't boot out other owners in a group, they have to leave on they're own. I've seen enough of these things go bad to know, you dont want people you don't like as owners in your group.

Better to create a new role, and assign land managment abilities as needed, to the sim owner.

OR just have the sim owner dictate certain requirements, like no open build unless there is a short auto-return, and such. most sim owners dont want to be part of random groups of their tenants.

yes, but why do the *have* to be group owners while they have the ultimate access trough the estate tools?

i`m getting some very strange feelings from this...

yes, but why do they *have* to be group owners while they have the ultimate access trough the estate tools?

i`m getting some very strange feelings from this...

Do the land owners own the sim or are they themselves leasing the sim and subleasing to you? This is the only reason I can think of that would logically explain their insistence that you must join their group.

The only other sensible reason I can think of is that they don't understand how estate land works and the powers that an estate owner has in terms of reclaiming land and disallowing resale.

Isn't all of this like having your RL apartment building landlord insist on sleeping on your couch?

See, I don't think it works that way. For stuff like setting media streams and ejecting/banning, the stuff has to be owned by the same *entity* that owns the land--it could be a group, or an individual. If you can own the land as an individual, and own the equipment, it should work fine. Then you can *set* it to the club group so the other members of the group can use it. (Unless this is some magical equipment I've never heard of before. Surely it's not like some weird tipjars using the "split proceeds" feature of groups, is it?)

Clarifying this....Nowhere I have I said I don't like these folks

I think they're just not familiar with the process, and that's fine, I need educating as well.

I believe this to be the case. They've been absolutely cooperative to this point. I truly understand their concern, as it relates to the not knowing...there have been a lot of cases of people absconding with sims. However, I'm as honest as the day is long in RL, and am the same way in SL. I just want to find the best way to alleviate their concerns and put them at peace that I'm not suggesting anything that would allow me (or anyone else) to steal the sim.

The land is owned by the group, of which the original owners of the land are the group owners and I am an officer of the group.

To use the equipment, it has to be deeded to the group (or individual) that owns the land. The group that owns the land is not the same group that is my VIP and/or Staff group.

no one can steal a sim unless the sim owner self initiates the island transfer proccess as the island will be in their avi name as owner till the end of days

Send the sim owners to this thread, HB. We'll straighten 'em out.

If you want to ask them to IM me I'll speak to them about how not at all dangerous the process is.

Yes, Honey, I know. We're talking past each other; sorry. (/me takes a swig of NyQuil in hopes it will help.) The thing is, you don't *want* the land deeded to that group because then you'll have to move all your Staff group members over to it--and even if that wasn't a pain to do, it might give them control over more land than you really want them to have (which I assume is just a parcel-able subset where the club stands). So, I was suggesting having that part of the land re-deeded to you as an individual instead of to the Staff group, only because most Estate owners would be familiar with individuals leasing the land. The Staff group would be fine as holding the lease for that parcel, too, as long as the Estate owner is okay with that.

But Ciaran raised the possibility that the people you're dealing with don't actually own the Estate at all, but are sub-leasing it to you. If that's the case then... well... urp!

Qie, I think we're on the same page, just approaching it from different angles...in my case, a Nyquil induced haze

I see what you're saying now. They already know me as an individual, so instead of putting the land on the group, have it go to me individually. I see how that resolves the equipment issue too. I own the equipment, I set it to share with the group.

I think.

I'll read this again after my nap

Qie, I think we're on the same page, just approaching it from different angles...in my case, a Nyquil induced haze

I see what you're saying now. They already know me as an individual, so instead of putting the land on the group, have it go to me individually. I see how that resolves the equipment issue too. I own the equipment, I set it to share with the group.

I think.

I'll read this again after my nap