Tell Me About Your Experience

I'm the owner of Cascadia Music Park and have been running live music venues there for nearly three years. We have a lot of fun and feel the variety of musicians (over 600) performing live in Second Life now is awesome.

But here's why I'm posting and asking you for your feed back. Three years ago, full sims and sim crashes at live music shows were common place. Our Saturday show normally pulled audiences in the 70s and we weren't alone. We weren't even the most popular!! There were some larger venues on multiple sim borders that often pulled audiences of well over 100.

However, over the last two and a half years, I've watched the audience size steadily decrease. These days, an audience in the upper teens to low twenties is a good turn out. There are a lot more venues now then there were, and a lot more musicians. Most folks in the live music community write off the low turn outs to this. But I and others have mapped the whole grid (based on live music event listings) and seen the over all number of residents attending shows is way, way down even though the number of residents on line now compared to two years ago is way, way up.

Here's what I'd like to hear from all of you . . .

1. Did you know that there were live music performances happening in Second Life nearly every hour of the day and night, every day? This is a show where a performer some where in the world is performing live and in real time and streaming their performance to an audience in Second Life.

2. Have you ever been to a live music show in Second Life.

3. Did you enjoy the live music show and look for more shows to attend?

4. What did you enjoy?

5. Have you attended more shows?

6. If you haven't attended more shows, why not?

7. If you didn't enjoy the show, what about it did you not like?

8. Do you have any other comments?

Any and all feedback you can give me will be very greatly appreciated and will be shared with the live music community. Hopefully, we'll make lots of improvements, get those numbers back up and give you something you'll really enjoy.

Thank you for your time!

Ticious Trottier

Hi Tiscious - I don't think I've ever attended a live music event at Cascadia Music Park...or at least, I don't recognize the name.



Yes I did know. I love listening to lots of different types of music, and try to catch a few shows each week.



Yes



I've enjoyed most of the shows I've attended, and yes.



um...the music. I like when the musician interacts a little with his/her audience, but spends most of his/her time actually singing and/or playing his/her instrument.



Yes, lots



I don't attend as many as I'd like - I just don't have the time.



Sometimes the music's not quite what I was looking for, genre-wise. Other times...the musician's...not pleasant to listen to, so I leave. And the main reason I leave? If there's a lot of ASCII text being thrown out into the chat window, particles flying around...lots of "woooooooohooooooooo" - all of which detract from my enjoyment. Others may like it; I just happen not to...so I leave.



Nope. See my response to Question 7.

I used to go to more live music shows. There are two problems:

i. My schedule changed such that I can never attend regular shows by my favorite musician.

ii. I learned from posts in these forums the amount performers and venues expect to be tipped. It's not that they don't deserve it, but I'm not eager to pay that amount very often, so mostly I just do other stuff instead.

To be honest, I never had a problem paying at least a respectable tip (I think) to the musician mentioned in #1, so it's probably true that I'd be attending other musicians' shows, were I to find any with comparable talent. (I know: all the musicians are gifted, etc., but... let's say I'm not advanced enough to appreciate them all equally.)

I'll start with # I goto live shows in SL almost daily. On weekends I will hit 2 or 3 if time permits. If someone I know isn't playing then I'll tp around to different venues until I find a performer that I like.
When I'm in "search mode" most of the places I hit have 10 or fewer people in attendance. It's usually because the performer does not meet SL's quality standards of today.

IMHO its the venues that are the reason for low attendance. They hire the sub par performers when they have no other option for a given time slot and that will tend to scare the casual listener away from the venue as a whole. I've invited people to come over to such and such club to hear someone play and the response I get sometimes is "that place sucks, I heard the worst singer there." Unfortunately venues are judged by the shows they put on and only one or two bad ones can start the decline in attendance. There are so many choices for live music now that a performer must really stand out to build up a fallowing. If a performer and a venue do not have a pre-built fallowing then their shows will tend to be small. Maybe the answer is not to have "new talent" perform in a regular time slot. An amateur night might be a fun concept and a good way of weeding out acts that you don't want on nights that you are trying to build up a fallowing on.

I see performers that have an audience of 30 to 40 regulars plus the people who happen to stumble upon them plus the venue's regulars. Many shows I attend hit 50 or 60 people. Only one guy I know pulls in bigger numbers than that on a regular basis.

4) Talented performers with a personality. Audience interaction.

7) Identical to Maureen's response although genre isn't a big concern if the other pieces fall into place. ETa~A poorly designed lag inducing venue will send me away faster than shit through a goose when I'm with friends that I want to interact with.

If you click my sig you'll see a vid of a gal who will have 20 to 30 people fallow her around venue to venue for 3 hours straight. I've seen her TP 50 people into an empty venue on a good night. No, she isn't the most popular performer I know of, she's just one of the ones I've become friends with.

DAMN lol ETA AGAIN~~~ Venues that allow the performer's "agent" to spam group invites and spam invites themselves are very low on my list of favorites. Constant reminders to tip the performer by the host and by the performer to tip the venue are bullshit too, mention it once or twice during the show. Having the tip jar out is usually enough to get people to tip especially if the tip jar says "thank you" and blows a single kiss particle to the tipper.

Hi Ticious -

1) Yes, and I think that it's awesome that they have added an event search to your home page. Yes - a link was already there - but it is more visible now.

2) I used to go to live music shows all the time. One of the best aspects of SL! And I recommend them all the time.

3) Most definitely enjoyed them! And made that part of my week's adventures.

4) The musician - the music - the crowd interaction - meeting new people - seeing a new venue and exploring it while listening to the performance.

5) and 6) I have not been able to attend any shows in the last few months, because the demands of SL have blown 2 of my good computers, and I'm on the last back-up, which is not substandard - average - but just won't handle being in a group of 15 or more - crash and burn. I think this is a problem for others, too. When I used to tp in people to see the shows with me - they often crashed multiple times - then gave up. I think that for someone on an average computer - the live shows might not be possible - certainly not with 70 to 100 people! So some of the population is missing out - the mechanics just don't allow for a good experience. Although you mention that you are experiencing better technical performance on the sim - I think that the average user is experiencing worse technical performance on their end. I think that I used this computer a few years ago, and it worked fine for live events - but it doesn't now - there are more demands on the resources.

7) the only shows that I didn't enjoy, were those in which the sim owner asked for donations every five minutes.

I ask new and old timers alike - if they have ever been to a live music event. No, they have not. Most don't know they are even available. Or some went to one that was a dud, and decided that's the way they all are - and did not attempt again. There is a very broad spectrum of quality. Unfortunately, some end up at the wrong end of the spectrum for their introduction.
As Qie mentioned....there has been some bad publicity on the methods of payment for venues and performance - currently some going on now in the blog forum - that puts the venue and the entertainer in a bad light - wish that could be worked out, without airing the dirty laundry. Most people just want to listen to the music, and not get all hung up on the money thing.

I know that there are lots of live music events, yes.



Yes




I generally don't go out to look for shows, unless they are happening somewhere that I am pretty much going to be anyway. That being said, I am not normal, because a good 80% of the time I am on SL I am actually 'working'. But 2 of the sims that I have satellite shop on have 2 - 4 live shows per day. Another sim that I tend to go to when I take a break has live shows occasionally, as a matter of fact last night there was one.




If the person has any musical talent then I will enjoy it If however they are karioke and someone told them they could sing to be nice, I won't stick around.




I don't tend to follow a performer from sim to sim but there are a few I will pretty much drop things to go see when they are in one of the places mentioned above.




too busy most of the time




Two things I don't like about shows: Gesture spam especially but not limited to the 'noisy' kind. Both are rude, but when the gesture is noisy at a live music event, that is beyond rude imo. I generally have 4 or 5 grey avs to unmute after the show (I only mute them temporarily).

Second thing is when the performer just isn't good.




I have heard people complain about performers singing to canned music. Personally I don't care if people use backup tracks, as long as they are giving me some sort of live music. Last night the guy used backup tracks, he also sang, played electric guitar and harmonica.

Hi, Ticious! I'm probably not the person you want answering this, since I actually turn up at Cascadia upon occasion. But since I've been pretty outspoken about some live music issues in the past, I'll answer


Yes


Yes


Yes, for the most part. If I don't enjoy them, I don't stay.


Interesting music, and interaction with the audience. Performers who don't acknowledge the audience don't get a return second listen.


Yes. I regularly attend at least a few a week.


I don't attend as many shows as I used to. In part, this is because some of the musicians I enjoy most don't play as often and I haven't really explored to find new favorites. There's also the ever-increasing pressure from some quarters of the live music folks regarding tips/fees, something I covered in a blog post a while back. Even though I was assured by many that my participation in the live music community has value above the price tag of "linden love" that I may be exhorted to put in a tip jar, I know that not everyone feels that way, and I can't pay my way to generous tips show after show, night after night.


From performers: I do not like the audience being unacknowledged. If they are going to do that, they might as well just play a recording of themselves. And I don't think that playing a recording of yourself is "live music", no matter how much I like your music.

From venues: Poor sight lines. Low ceilings. Seating where when you sit down, it puts your camera in the wall. Intan couple dance machines with the cheapest possible dances in them so that your avatar looks terrible while dancing. Hosts/hostesses who tell you to "TP in your friends!" (Seriously, I hate that so much that not only will I not TP in my friends; I will leave.)

From fellow audience members: Gesture spam. Especially noisy gestures while a performer is on. (And for heaven's sakes, don't put a sign up in your venue that says "no gesture spam" and then have your hostess stand there and gesture spam everybody.)


It's fairly accepted these days that stay in SL stay because they make friends. They become part of a community. I think that people who tend to frequent live music tend to do so because they decide they like certain acts, so they're joining part of a community, too. That community aspect is key to keeping people returning to shows.

LL has quietly turned down the spotlight it used to place on live music events, something I suspect has to do with their worrying about having to pay BMI fees out of their own pockets. Unfortunately, what LL highlights, the new users find. I've seen the live music community jousting at the windmill of asking for help from the lab to get additional support and exposure for live music, and I think until they unbend and are willing to at least do some basic things that were suggested to them back in August, it's going to be an uphill battle. Sadly, the spokesperson the Lab chose was Colossus, and even if he wanted to put some effort into live music, I think he has his hands full for the foreseeable future with being burned in effigy on XStreet. I'll be curious to hear what the venue owners decide to do on their own without the Lab's help.

This has been great feed back, both the positive and the negative! Thank you all so much for your time and thoughts. And anyone who hasn't answered yet, please feel free to, all the thoughts and opinions I can gather will be a big help!

1. Yes I do know.

2. Yes I have.

3. I enjoyed it but have not sought out any more shows.

4. It was good acoustic music.

5. I have not attended more shows.

6. I haven't thought about it or been motivated enough to seek them out.

7. n/a

8. Nope.

1. Did you know that there were live music performances happening in Second Life nearly every hour of the day and night, every day?

I knew about live music. I didn't know it was that frequent. The couple of times I've used the in-world Events search I didn't get very many results for the dates and times I was interested in.

2. Have you ever been to a live music show in Second Life.

Yes.

3. Did you enjoy the live music show and look for more shows to attend?

Yes.

4. What did you enjoy?

The performance. I do appreciate it when a live performer interacts with the crowd; it shows they're actually live.

5. Have you attended more shows?

A few.

6. If you haven't attended more shows, why not?

My time in SL is limited. After taking time to create products to sell, work on my land, and spend time with friends, some of whom don't share my musical tastes, sadly there's very little time left for anything else.

7. If you didn't enjoy the show, what about it did you not like?

I always enjoy the performance. I don't see why people think it's necessary to carry on public conversations during them though. I'm there to hear the music, not listen to other people talk.

1. Did you know that there were live music performances happening in Second Life nearly every hour of the day and night, every day? This is a show where a performer some where in the world is performing live and in real time and streaming their performance to an audience in Second Life.


Yes...I have known about the Live music venue for 3 years.....

2. Have you ever been to a live music show in Second Life. Absolutely.....

3. Did you enjoy the live music show and look for more shows to attend? Many times, yes I did enjoy......but just as often.....I was very disappointed at the performance (not sure if it was the quality of the feed, or the performer just really not that good)

4. What did you enjoy? Well....basiclaly if the performer seemed to be exceptional, then I enjoyed the music.

5. Have you attended more shows? More since when? I haven't been to one in a while...but I have not been able to spend as much time in SL lately with the whole full time employment thing going on IRL lol

6. If you haven't attended more shows, why not? Not enough time to do and see all I want in SL lately so I stick to my own creative projects as they give me the most satisfaction.

7. If you didn't enjoy the show, what about it did you not like? Either the performer was pretty bad....or the lag was so bad it wasn't worth sticking around.

8. Do you have any other comments?

Um.....only that in a venue where anyone can pick up the software and start piping their pipes into a live grid....it's really not as easy to find really talented quality performers. I know they are out there....and sometimes even the novices suprise.....but it gets frustrating jumping from show to show....trying to weed out the wannabe's from the real deal. I have a brother that's an amazingly gifted musician and I've encouraged him to try SL as a platform for exposure......he's interested, but thus far hasn't got the right computer to handle it. I would love to hear him via SL just to see if what I hear in-world measures up to his live self. I wonder when I hear lousy performers, if it isn't just that SL cannot possibly translate the full scale of talent with the limited streaming capabilities.....then again....when I hear something really outstanding...I have to assume the rest were just hopefuls, enjoying their 15 minutes of cyber fame.

No.



Yes.



No.



I think one other - I happened to be on sim when it began, and didn't want to seem rude.



Honestly? The music was not that good.



No. The questions are a bit general. I'm sure there are many types of live music in SL, so I'm unsure what the questions will illuminate for you.

Erm, ditto really. We're all saying about the same, aren't we? Live music is great but SL time is limited. Gesture and, especially, sound spam is annoying as are too-frequent requests for tips.

I don't go to many events now because I can't log into SL itself very often and when I do it seems like a waste to 'listen to the radio' instead of doing something only SL can offer. That and my already bad connection will probably collapse completely if there are more than 10-15 people around. If there has been any underlying degradation to SL's performance in that respect it's mostly hidden from me by my ISP's!

Similarly, I haven't seen any change from LL but if they're down-playing live music it's presumably because they're only interested in 'serious' commercial and academic customers at the moment. Oh - and search still sucks so it's almost impossible to find a reputable place with a good performer.

ETA: Next time there's a 'survey' from some non-resident about some non-SL subject just using us as test-rats I'll have to point them to this thread as the right way/thing to ask

*coughs*

Alazarin!! Wait in the SLMC Forum for my write up from this!!

Musicians, sheesh!

This is *so* true. I wonder: is there a blog with reputable reviewers and a *managed* event list specifically for live music events? If not, why not? I'm thinking a database of performers and venues (a bit like eventful.com), each tagged by reasonable selectors (genre, etc.), and by which reviewers recommend it.

I wonder... if we begged Crap Mariner (of Tunes inSL)... he might know someone motivated to create such a thing, inasmuch as he knows everybody in the community.

One thing I forgot in my earlier post: sometimes I attend live music events because I like the venue, whether the musicians are any good or not. It's luck of the draw, but sometimes I stumble on pretty good music that way.

Most of the notsogood performers I've heard have been at "music mills"....places that use live performers, have one every hour on the hour, and do NOT pay them. We can all think of more than one place who claims to "help" musicians by giving them a place to play. (LMAO!!)
For one week I'd like to see content creators give away their products for "tips only." I always tip.
The best performers in SL get paid by the venue for their talent, as they have a right to be because from what I've read and heard, people in SL love to stiff live musicians. I've heard DJs get more tips and that is pitiful.

I've seen creators tout the benefits of high quality goods and how they come with a price. (They do!) So should good musicians.

The admissions on here that people are reluctant to attend many events because they can't afford to tip that often is further proof that "tips only" is not just a fail, it also doesn't recognize the legitimacy that good musicians deserve to be paid, just as good content creators. Live music will not survive in SL...GOOD live music...if the burden of payment remains placed on the audience.

Yes, yes, and yes.

The music?

Yes

I like to do more in SL then spend every hour of every day at a show. I have a day job. Finding talented musicians is a crap shoot.

The musician sucked, the genre didn't appeal to me, or the venue didn't provide an intan (or a very limited one)

I echo Qie's question. Is there a blog with reputable reviewers and easy ways to find good musicians? I find good artists a few ways right now. I either pick from the events listing (crap shoot), hear about someone on the forums, or I stick around after a show to listen to the next performer. There are currently only three artists that I know and like enough to go see regularly.

1. I've know about live music performances pretty much since I came to Second Life.

2 & 3. I went to my first one after a few months of exploring other things to do on the grid and became a fan of the first one whom I saw/heard and went to listen where ever he performed.

4. I generally only enjoy performers who play their own instrument, usually a guitar or piano. I like it when a musician interacts with their audience. Storytelling between songs can be entertaining just as it can in real life performances. I actually kind of like it when they make a mistake every now and then and make funny comments about it too. I enjoy listening to this duet of Aussie girls that play together whenever the one is visiting the other and they occasionally break into giggle fits during a song.

5. Yes, I have attended more shows.

6. N/A

7. I will not attend a performance by a musician that relies exclusively on tracks. Using a loop pedal or limited tracks to accompany them is okay for me, especially if it is their original music.

8. I wish more people would tip both the venue and the artist at live music performances. A significant number of the people who attend these events, sometimes the majority, never tip either. This is especially true for tipping the venue. These places don't run on air. They cost a relatively significant amount of money in tier and payment to the musicians and most of them operate at a loss. Often when I look at the venue tip jar it is clear that the tips will not even cover the expense of the musician. If everyone would tip a mere 100 linden dollars at these events it might at least help the venue pay for that. For the price of a cup of coffee they could tip both the venue and the musician in this manner. Is it really so much to ask for to enjoy an hour of live music in the privacy of your own home?