RL laws in SL

I keep hearing such serious talk about applying laws to SL from RL and people thinking they could be enforced in what's a video game from anyone who "doesn't get it" perspective. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for ethical behavior in SL and getting rid of fraud and that stuff, but I just can't see a judge taking SL seriously and applying a RL law to it.

Has there ever been a case where a judge took this serious?

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14176


A decision is likely to be made on this case:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34598/118/

Most people make very little in SL but for a few there is very real money to be made. Once you have real dollars changing hands you better believe the lawyers are going to get involved.

You call it a game, but I know some people that SL is their only source of income.

Start making "Official NFL gear" in SL and let us know how that goes...

oh i know its more than a game. I don't call it a game myself. The feelings generated in it are too real for a game, and i do hope to run a business in it. I just wonder about the peopel who don't use it.

Good to see this.

Yes.

And when you use Lindens, it ceases to be a video game. RL laws certainly apply to such issues as gambling and sexually related ageplay. In those cases, it was the RL laws of the US which apply to Linden Lab. They probably also took the laws of Germany into serious consideration, considering the size of their customer base there. Copyright laws have also been at issue.

Getting a judge or jury to understand SL would be a challenge, but Lindens translate to real money, therefore real life rules apply. You're unlikely to see very many real court cases because the amounts in controversy are prohibitively small. You just aren't going to sue over $100.00 - $2,000. Most attorneys won't seriously look at a case under 6 figures, and you'ld be hard pressed to find a case of fraud with those sorts of damages. Plus, the global nature of SL makes service, jurisdiction, venue, and any other number of procedural issues extremely difficult. Say you live in Washington. Someone in Oklahome defrauds you. The sim it took place in is housed in a server in Texas, and LL is in California. Exactly where are you supposed to sue them? Then, how do you get their info from LL, and once you do, how do you serve them. Once you figure all that out, you still have to go through the process of a lawsuit to get a worthless judgment against them, and if you want to actually set some sort of precedent, you have to get an appeal to the appellate level and hope you get lucky and the appellate court publishes a decision. At this point, you're out $100,000 plus in USD, not Lindens.

The upshot is that RL laws apply. You can treat it like a video game if you want, but it is not, and it is unlikely that there will be any published case law anytime soon, with the exception of the sexgen suit, which is an intellectual property issue, not fraud. Even the case with the guy cheating the system on land sales won't be published case law. News articles don't count.

Yes.

And when you use Lindens, it ceases to be a video game. RL laws certainly apply to such issues as gambling and sexually related ageplay. In those cases, it was the RL laws of the US which apply to Linden Lab. They probably also took the laws of Germany into serious consideration, considering the size of their customer base there. Copyright laws have also been at issue.

Getting a judge or jury to understand SL would be a challenge, but Lindens translate to real money, therefore real life rules apply. You're unlikely to see very many real court cases because the amounts in controversy are prohibitively small. You just aren't going to sue over $100.00 - $2,000. Most attorneys won't seriously look at a case under 6 figures, and you'ld be hard pressed to find a case of fraud with those sorts of damages. Plus, the global nature of SL makes service, jurisdiction, venue, and any other number of procedural issues extremely difficult. Say you live in Washington. Someone in Oklahome defrauds you. The sim it took place in is housed in a server in Texas, and LL is in California. Exactly where are you supposed to sue them? Then, how do you get their info from LL, and once you do, how do you serve them. Once you figure all that out, you still have to go through the process of a lawsuit to get a worthless judgment against them, and if you want to actually set some sort of precedent, you have to get an appeal to the appellate level and hope you get lucky and the appellate court publishes a decision. At this point, you're out $100,000 plus in USD, not Lindens.

The upshot is that RL laws apply. You can treat it like a video game if you want, but it is not, and it is unlikely that there will be any published case law anytime soon, with the exception of the sexgen suit, which is an intellectual property issue, not fraud. Even the case with the guy cheating the system on land sales won't be published case law. News articles don't count.

Sigh. And I'm going to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress if I get one more goddamn 503.

What precisely about being in SL would prevent you from being under the consideration of the law? "Yes, well, I defrauded him for a thousand dollars, your honour, but... it's Second Life! You know - 'lol'! 'Serious business!'"

There are fringe issues to do with the meaning of property in terms of the law and so on, but, say, copyright law or breach of contract can be involved no matter what the medium.

I think you may be able to generate enough support for a class action suit there, Trout...Coun t me in for starters..

well here's why i mention it.
I come from 4 years of everquest, some eq2, ddo and vanguard.
Never heard of a case against another player in those and there sure could be theft cases or harrasment cases.
That's all i'm saying is its such a new medium and its seen as outsiders as a game not a viable option for life.
I am glad that people take it so serious and will take it seriously in courts.

the difference is that those people aren't playing for real money.

In the actual "games" you mentioned, I'm sure there have been a few lawsuits brought by people who have been ripped off by scammers selling stuff outside the games. And possibly suits brought by the game owners themselves against some of those scammers. They probably were small enough to escape notice by big media, but I would be very surprised if they had not happened.

LOTS of RL commerce goes on concerning those games. It's just not sanctioned by the game owners like SL commerce is, and don't take place as openly within the games.

Hi

One of the biggest miss-conceptions about the Internet in general and now about Second Life is that it is a law free space.

Fact is, that whenever two or more people interact with each other, no matter what medium they use, the RL laws are applicable - always.

To the extend of this:
http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/04/24/open-roundtable-allegations-of-virtual-rape-bring-belgian-police-to-second-life/

We will see lots of this in the future:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/18/second_life_copyright_suit/

Theft, rape, fraud, doesnt get legal just because you use an Avatar and its NOT just about money. I wouldn't be surprised if we read one day someone was done for running around naked with a hard on, on a PG SIM - sexual harrasment?

And thats the way it should be.

Regards

Maggie

It's not really for us to decide whether RL law apply here in SL, it's for the legal authorities.

The law about what one can and can't do in SL clearly varies from country to country.
Presumably in some countries it would be an offence to even download and log in to SL.

Linden Lab, being an American company, has to abide by US laws, it has no choice. It also has to be aware of differing legal situations in other countries where large numbers of residents come from.

With the US government having at least 7 sims and several other countries having areas inside the game I'm sure that RL law is very alive and well in SL.

If every RL Law applied, SL would be a steaming pile of Political Correctness on the shoebottom of the internet.

They're still looking for those WMDs

I would welcome some RL punishment for griefers. It would be a wonderful day indeed should such laws ever come into existance in SL.

Who's to say that the law would see your side of things...?

One man's "griefer" is often another man's "freedom fighter"... or something like that..

Paying alot of money per month only to have it constantly attacked and disrupted by losers is sabotage. I'm not following your whole lame argument.

**Edit**
Sorry for biting your head off. Just a frustrated business owner.

Paying alot of money per month only to have it constantly attacked and disrupted by losers is sabotage. I'm not following your whole lame argument.

Are you serious? The last thing I want is someone crying and suing for harassment because I took my virtual shirt off at a virtual party. For crying out loud, they can teleport out. Or log out. If their eyes were so offended by my nudie pixels, they can damn well pluck them out. I'm sick of prudes who get offended by EVERYTHING. Apparently Tom Petty's Half time show was offensive and sexual in nature. Give me a break.

And, really, there is NO RAPE in Second Life.

I'm with Oryx on this one. Plus, I enjoyed Tom Petty's half time show. Maybe I'm getting old. I'd rather watch Tom Petty sing some of his hits than catch a fleeting glimpse of Janet Jackson's boob.

The definition of sexual harassment is such that it won't happen in SL. There may be some stalking issues that come up, and it would be interesting to see how a court would enforce a restraining order against someone in SL, but I'm pretty sure it could be crafted to work. However, no sexual harassment per se, and definitely no rape. The first question a defense attorney would ask is if the victim could just leave. Actually, the first question would be whether the defendant ever actually saw the victim in RL. Then there would be a lot of laughing and pointing at the prosecutor, probably an investigation of some sort. A job would open up at the prosecutor's office and maybe the local newspaper would cover the story of the moron in the prosecutor's office who tried to charge some poor schmuck with SL rape.

At any rate, you have no cause of action against those idiots who run around with their prim penises hanging out demanding that you teach them sexxies, even in PG sims. AR them or something, but you have absolutely no shot at a sexual harassment suit. On the plus side, this means that we can try to convince Oryx to take her top off at the next hangout party! No legal liability!

No, it was just lame. As was that ridiculous Rape story last spring.

*Waahhhhh! Somebody was mean to me in a video game! Wahhhhhh!*

Basically, real life laws apply to the _real life_ activities that are happening when you play SL - not to the virtual activities that they might represent.

So, for example, prostitution in SL isn't illegal under prostitution laws in real life; but wearing a particular avatar in front of someone is tantamount to sending them that image over the internet, which may attract legal consequences based on the material.