Is 2007 a bit late for getting "SL" trademarked?
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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03-24-2008 22:49
I'm not too up on trademark law but it strikes me that lots of places had used "SL" in their business names prior to 2007 when it appears that LL trademarked the letters SL. I don't recall that SL was considered part of the official nomenclature for Second Life. I'm not sure there's any evidence that SL was actually coined by Linden Research.
Anybody know anything about the history of the SL trademark, prior use, where the term first appeared in public used to mean Second Life, etc.?
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Madhu Maruti
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03-24-2008 23:12
Thank you for not sneering at trademark lawyers (instead of at your own unfamiliarity with trademark law) in this post as you did in the other; unfortunately, I saw your other post first and gave some response there.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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03-24-2008 23:17
I am anarchist. I have to sneer at lawyers. It's required.
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Madhu Maruti
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03-24-2008 23:17
From: SuezanneC Baskerville I am anarchist. I have to sneer at lawyers. It's required. As long as you don't mind if we bristle back at you.
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Kaimi Kyomoon
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03-24-2008 23:22
Bristling and sneering anarchists and lawyers. Oh my.
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Butch Adzebills
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03-25-2008 01:08
The other thread's far too long, to comment, but I see nothing wrong with Linden protecting it's name. They're keeping their company name and logo for corporate use only.
The new "inSL" logo, indicates that the user is only associated with, or a supporter of, SL.
By allowing residents to use the actual SL logo etc, it may give people the false indication the product, website, etc is an actual Linden Lab (or whatever) product.
It's a company protecting itself it's business, nothing more.
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Brenda Connolly
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03-25-2008 04:57
From: Butch Adzebills The other thread's far too long, to comment, but I see nothing wrong with Linden protecting it's name. They're keeping their company name and logo for corporate use only.
The new "inSL" logo, indicates that the user is only associated with, or a supporter of, SL.
By allowing residents to use the actual SL logo etc, it may give people the false indication the product, website, etc is an actual Linden Lab (or whatever) product.
It's a company protecting itself it's business, nothing more. I haven't logged on to get the TOS Update yet, but from the buzzing here and from the Blog I agree. Actually it's surprising from a company that has repeatedly shot itself in the foot business wise. They are actually making a logical business move., a step toward getting the house in order. And also probably closer to making SL more "real".
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Matthew Dowd
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03-25-2008 05:02
From: Brenda Connolly I haven't logged on to get the TOS Update yet, but from the buzzing here and from the Blog I agree. Actually it's surprising from a company that has repeatedly shot itself in the foot business wise. They are actually making a logical business move., a step toward getting the house in order. And also probably closer to making SL more "real". Maybe, although the wording in the new TOS could be better, e.g. "Except for the licenses expressly granted there or in a separate written agreement signed by you and Linden Lab, Linden Lab reserves all right, title, and interest in the Linden Lab Marks and does not authorize you to display or use any Linden Lab Mark in any manner whatsoever." which actually violates some statutory rights which a TOS can't actually overule (but then the TOS is full of clauses which wouldn't stand up in court anyway), and which technically defeats the purpose, and the easiest way to obligue is to never say or write any own trademark in any blog, post, report, etc. Would be fun if a report on the future of virtual worlds came out with no mention of SecondLife et al and when queried the writers said "oh, we decided not to include mention of that for legal purposes...". Matthew |
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Madhu Maruti
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03-25-2008 05:04
Since the other thread is long I'll recopy my comment from there to here (without the bristling): From: someone
Linden Labs submitted an application in the United States Patent and Trademark Office for federal registration of the mark "SL" in 2007. That application has not matured into a registration. The same is true of the marks "GRID" and "HIPPO" that you mention.
It's not really correct to say that Linden has "trademarked" any of these words, though I think these applications for registration are what you are referring to. What they have done is apply for federal registration of a number of marks they use in their business. Whether those registrations will be allowed depends upon a number of factors, including use of the marks by others on related goods and services to the ones LL has specified in its application.
If those registrations are allowed, it will give Linden Labs certain rights - but again, those rights may be limited against senior users of the marks in related areas.
It's important to remember that one can use a trademark without obtaining federal registration of it. Federal registration grants certain enforcement rights, like the right to sue for infringement in federal court and the benefit of certain evidentiary presumptions about one's use of the mark, but it's not a blanket power to exclude all other uses of the words of the trademark in any context, nor even a blanket power to exclude all other uses of those words as a trademark by others.
Magdalena Siemens made some useful comments in that thread too.
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Brenda Connolly
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03-25-2008 05:15
From: Matthew Dowd Maybe, although the wording in the new TOS could be better..... Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Considering LL's record of maddengly nebulous and idiotic communications, it is at least some improvement.
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Madhu Maruti
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03-25-2008 05:27
From: Matthew Dowd Maybe, although the wording in the new TOS could be better, e.g.
"Except for the licenses expressly granted there or in a separate written agreement signed by you and Linden Lab, Linden Lab reserves all right, title, and interest in the Linden Lab Marks and does not authorize you to display or use any Linden Lab Mark in any manner whatsoever."
which actually violates some statutory rights which a TOS can't actually overule (but then the TOS is full of clauses which wouldn't stand up in court anyway), and which technically defeats the purpose, and the easiest way to obligue is to never say or write any own trademark in any blog, post, report, etc.
Would be fun if a report on the future of virtual worlds came out with no mention of SecondLife et al and when queried the writers said "oh, we decided not to include mention of that for legal purposes...".
Matthew Matthew, I don't think it violates anything for Linden Labs to say they are not authorizing any uses. They are not saying "no use is legal" - just that no use is authorized. For example, fair use for the purpose of critique may be perfectly legal but that doesn't mean that Linden Labs has to authorize it. You are correct that many adhesion contracts like a TOS are full of unenforceable terms but just saying "we're not authorizing anything" isn't really one such.
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Matthew Dowd
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03-25-2008 06:47
From: Madhu Maruti Matthew, I don't think it violates anything for Linden Labs to say they are not authorizing any uses. They are not saying "no use is legal" - just that no use is authorized. For example, fair use for the purpose of critique may be perfectly legal but that doesn't mean that Linden Labs has to authorize it.
You are correct that many adhesion contracts like a TOS are full of unenforceable terms but just saying "we're not authorizing anything" isn't really one such. Fair enough - however, LL tend to act as judge, jury and executioner over TOS violations, and there are plenty of horror stories (albeit perhaps statistically small) of someone having their account suspended or even deleted due to errors, misinterpretations, so it isn't unnatural if there is a highlighted change in the TOS which says that using various words is unauthorised, that people worry that using such words might result in their accounts being suspended or worse! Hence the various blog and forum posts. Also, the various example of "acceptable" use of the words do not help since they go to an extreme, for instance insisting that people say "the Second Life world" rather than "Second Life"... Matthew |
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Madhu Maruti
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03-25-2008 07:00
From: Matthew Dowd
Also, the various example of "acceptable" use of the words do not help since they go to an extreme, for instance insisting that people say "the Second Life world" rather than "Second Life"...
You have a fair point about the TOS; I am not saying that TOS's shouldn't be unambiguous, only that LL is not required to "authorize" an activity it doesn't want to authorize, even if that activity is legal. With regard to what's quoted above, there is nothing extreme about this at all; it is, in fact, what every trademark holder must do to ensure that its mark remains a brand name and does not become generic. It's why if you read a box of Kleenex it says "Kleenex(R) brand facial tissue." Search for information about "genericide" to learn more. Trying to make sure that the brand name is used as an adjective to modify a generic noun is an essential part of protecting a trademark against the possibility of becoming generic - i.e., losing its distinctiveness as a source of goods or service, which causes the owner to lose exclusive rights to the mark.
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Rocky Rutabaga
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03-25-2008 07:00
So does this mean I can't use the letters SL at all in signage or items for sale? Can I make a T-shirt for AVs to wear that reads "SLacker"? (I've been selling that one for two years, now, with no challenge by LL.) Or could I create a shirt showing a phrase like "Second Life SLut?" Or name a special prom/dance event "The SLeaze Ball"?
Or am I SLipping SLowly into SLanderous and SLoppy SLilliness?
I thought the trademark protection is for an actual "mark," which includes the design of the letters in a particular font and color and layout. Like the stacked Second Life logo at the top of this page.
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Ingrid Ingersoll
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03-25-2008 07:03
Second Life® and Linden Lab™ are trademarks or registered trademarks of Linden Research, Inc. All rights reserved. No infringement is intended.
I included that in the website I made 3 years ago. The blurb is from their "fan site tool kit" available on the website, and has been for ages... years. So i'm quite sure they haven't waited until just now to trademark or register their name.
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Cherry Czervik
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03-25-2008 07:04
/me looks at the issue and the thread and declares myself unaffected by it and unlikely to be affected by it. Which is nice.
So how many people bought those nice SL necklaces they were doing last year? LOL
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Brenda Connolly
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03-25-2008 07:05
I can think of one particular Finger Symbol, and the two words that usually accompany it that haven't been trademarked as far as I know.
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Damien1 Thorne
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03-25-2008 07:43
From: Brenda Connolly I can think of one particular Finger Symbol, and the two words that usually accompany it that haven't been trademarked as far as I know. Quick, trademark it before someone else does! |
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Lindal Kidd
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03-25-2008 09:04
From: Butch Adzebills The other thread's far too long, to comment, but I see nothing wrong with Linden protecting it's name. They're keeping their company name and logo for corporate use only.
The new "inSL" logo, indicates that the user is only associated with, or a supporter of, SL.
By allowing residents to use the actual SL logo etc, it may give people the false indication the product, website, etc is an actual Linden Lab (or whatever) product.
It's a company protecting itself it's business, nothing more. Inconsistent, that's what they are. They make the client open source, and talk about making the server open source. But they hang on to use of the name of the product? /me scratches head. @Maddy and Cherry: Stop that sneering and bristling right now, or you'll get a time out.
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Nika Talaj
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03-25-2008 09:20
/me peers at the issue with mild interest. This seems to me to just be LL getting their intellectual property in order for an eventual IPO or acquisition. Corporate housekeeping.
If they're like others who have registered words and in some cases trademarks, they selectively enforce. I'm sure the makers of Kleenex have been endlessly delighted to have branded an entire class of products, so they don't object to casual uses of the term. However, if some other manufacturer were to start advertising decorative Kleenex holders, I bet that eventually the Kleenex folks would take notice and send a letter, because they make them too.
Unless and until you get a note from LL about your SLacker T-shirts, I wouldn't stress about it.
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Rebecca Proudhon
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03-25-2008 11:26
Doesn't Transcendental Meditation hold the trademark "  TM)"? |