Shamelessness

The other day I got an IM, inworld, asking if I'd drop my price for a large parcel (above 18,000m).

I replied that I'd just dropped the price the night before, and would give it a try at that price (or give THEM a try--it's divided into several smaller parcels) for a few weeks. Which has the virtue of being the literal truth, on all counts.

So in a while the person sent me a second IM, telling me that the reason they wanted my parcel was that the sim just to the north---a Protected ocean sim---had a name that was the same as that of a deceased person they'd been close to.

...........................Gosh, well, in THAT case, of COURSE I'll sell it to you below my cost!!!!

...

No.

Of course my response was 'I'm sorry for your loss', but-----no price drop.

Because: THERE ARE SEVERAL PARCELS UP FOR SALE THAT ADJOIN THE PROTECTED SIM IN QUESTION.

So, no: it's not the case that *sob* the only way this person could honor the deceased would be *sob* if they could buy my parcel.

HONestly.

...

I gather, from song and story, that people who do this sort of thing have no qualms of conscience whatsoever---if you can fleece the rubes, you've WON WON WON!!! That's the way they think.

................................................May their karma come upon them!



edit: funny about that space between the 'a' and 'y'....guess I'd never noticed it, before.

I got another IM from the person tonight, making a lowball offer for another parcel I own.

I would guess that this person might have seen me lower the prices on the parcels in the first sim the other day, and might have formed the assumption that I might have tier coming due, and thus be desperate for cash.

Probably there are people who do that on a regular basis.

The routine would be to notice an owner dropping a price, then IM them offering an even lower price. And probably this does pay off, for some percentage of those IMs---sometimes a lowered price IS a sign of someone desperate for cash.

I don't find such a pursuit exactly admirable, but at least it's not dishonest. It's not what you'd call noble, but on the other hand it's not unethical.

It's the fake 'oh, this would mean so much sentimentally to me, because of my dead acquaintance'----a claim which is proven false by the existence of other parcels for sale in the same location----that I find to be tacky as heck.

I have wonder about how often that occurs online in other situations but I guess I am just suspicious.
Although it is interesting watching this one area near me with the land traders buying low and raising the price, someone else come over and doing the same thing again, over and over again until the price is ridiculous amount.
I am not looking forward to see what is going the sim my friend paid close to 4000 usd for land around tis one sim which she is going for less then 1000 to 500 usd if she is lucky to some land trader who going buy and someone going to buy and the same thing is going happen numerous times and nothing creative except money will exchange.
If she sold it to you or any other land trader you only pay her 3 to 4L a meter when she paid over 10L, the going land price is probably higher then land trader will give her to get rid of her tier.
I feel pretty bad about it.
It just profit for most of land traders don't seem care what happens to those who live there it seems because all about the money.
I know there is good ones out there but some are like Parasites.
For those of who create land is more then profit it is canvas and place to dream. love and share moments with our friends and virtual families. Yet sadly often our canvas are ruined due to cost of first life conflicting our Second life's so we stuck with smaller areas often filled with lag, blight and for sale signs especially we can't afford our own islands and stuck on mainland.
But hey your profit margin is whole lot more important then anyone else's stories or dreams.

Yes, I've gathered that there's a lot of resentment---in some cases justified---against those who buy and sell land. So I admitted to it only after giving the matter some thought.

There are only a few special-circumstances cases in which I've done nothing to land (and in those cases could be called a leeching middle-person, I guess). But in the vast majority of cases I take land in square-meter sizes that few people would want (or could afford), sometimes very irregular parcels, and find a way to make them small enough to sell, and in Tier-sized pieces. It can be a regular puzzle to work it out, sometimes.

I also terraform a lot, and landscape with trees and docks with boats and whatnot.

So, I'm unashamed. It's fun, and I have hopes of getting into the black some day...

But I AM a bit ashamed of anyone in the same business who would pull the "please give me a low price because I know someone who died" stunt---when it's obviously a big ol' ploy.


(In re your seeing the same parcels sold over and over---yeah, me too. I'm sure there's a story behind every changeover, too...)



edit: spelling

It's hard to tell motives.

Having dealt with thousands of land transactions I've heard... a lot of things. Usually when someone exits Second Life they give some really, really catastrophic reason - and it used to sort of bother me, as I knew 8 out of 10 people probably didn't just have their financial world end on them as stated.

More likely they were just choosing different entertainment, or had to pay off their christmas credit card bill. Yeah, I get it - but after a while I realised: this was their way of smoothing over the situation. They don't generally say: "Des I'm bored, and it came down to a new iPod I've been wanting, or that parcel of land" - no, they are kind and say "I'm in deep financial trouble, I have no other option but to leave your wonderful land." I don't question them.

And sure, a few people really have lost jobs, &c. Others leave in the spring and return right about now. I don't really need reasons, actually - I don't interrogate, but business on the grid is X percent business and Y percent friendship too. Many want to tell me something nice in any situation. I'm accepting, and let them do it, even when they unwittingly outed their alt or I just happened to read their blog and knew what was really going on. Not calling people out leaves them comfortable.

* * * * *

So back to your situation. Sure, it could be someone just 'working ya over' and hoping you are sentimental enough to roll over backward. That's one possibility. I'd daresay it's more likely that they are offering you a face-saving get-out-of-jail-free-card: "Here's a reason you can state for selling low - it's not that you were desperate to sell, it's because you were being nice." At which point, you remain a respected business person in any retelling of the tale.

So let's say you paid $L 10/m for the 18k meters and want $L 10/m now (sheer guess for illustrative purposes). That would be 680 USD or so.

If it would take a month to sell at that amount, it stands to reason to lower to about 600ish due to tier costs you'd lose anyway, waiting. So yes it's reasonable to offer someone slightly below price if the land is just sitting there. Of course, there are right ways and wrong ways of doing this - it seems like the way you were approached just plain struck you the wrong way.

I have few acquaintances who are great people who sell land for huge amounts that I can't believe anyone pay for, but they also are very creative too and prior to meeting these people I thought gee land traders they are all the same.
Yet there is lot of them out there who don't seem to care about anything except the bottom line and getting most they can for it.
My friend trade me some land in area she had that I fell in love with around small community we had formed but she has to sell due to the issues with what happen with first life finical situation which everyone is very sad about.
I am hoping the people who buy in the area want to do so because they want to create a low lag neighborhood not flip but their is no guarantees and chance of that is really not likely.

In re your friend---I haven't been here long enough to see it, but I hear that land prices have gone up and down quite a bit. What with the new policy banning the big spinning ads and glowing blocks and all, we could well be headed for a period of higher prices, and maybe your friend could recover more (or even all) of what she paid...

^_^

No doubt about it.

I'm feeling my way as to how much of a softie I'm willing to be (I'm not rich in RL, so there are definite limits.) But personally I don't want to be a jerk, because I do believe in karma. Also, it feels icky.

It feels really good to have taken a piece of land and terraformed and dressed it and subdivided it so people can afford it--and then see people buy and build on it. The first time that happened to me (and the people actually wrote something like 'this is our dream home' on the About Land), I was so pleased I took a snapshot, to remember having helped someone out.

Then they put up Ban Lines, and the sweet feeling soured a bit.

But at least they're still there, enjoying themselves. (A lot of my parcels end up being bought by speculators. That makes no difference to my bottom line, but does make a difference to the satisfaction and fun I get out of doing this.)

She started off with one 512m lot close over almost 2 years ago over time she struggled with campers and casinos lots with over 11L a meter. Over time she and few friends, even I bought lots their to give to the group.
Slowly we helped get most of the sim
A friend bought the sim next door she started off with 1/2 sim for 150k which is was pretty good price I got 1/4 of sim or close to it for around the same price because of land deal the person wanted and she really wanted the land. I end up giving her the land , then moving by buying close to 13k in land for 27k which was better deal and just sheer bit of luck and some donate land.
Then neighboring sim some sex club took it over often their is over 30 or more people there traffic causes the sim my friend had, that was on going battle for last year. It was hard to do things in the land she had because of all lag issues.
I got land in sim next door around 13k with group donations,etc.
But it was hard to keep it all self substaining, money problems happened and she just can't do it any more.
I traded some land so I could be near the other friend's sim.
But it is really sad to see it all go even with all the lag and problems with the sim over last few years
I lost 100k in land sale, because at the time to even get 1/4 of sim in way I could afford it cost me close 250k before the prices dropped, then when I sold I had to lose money for quick sale to move to the community to get land their so all my friends could be together and one buffer zone in mainland without the blight,etc.

Your post is very sensible and does expand my ideas about all this--thanks. Specifics:



Excellent observation. And one I'm sure that applies to many interactions.


* * * * *




In the particular case of the person claiming sentimental reasons for wanting to acquire land next to another sim, it would have been more plausible as a reason if there hadn't been other parcels up for sale (and not priced any higher, either!) right next door, which also border on the sim in question.

Also detracting from the 'the person was offering you a face-saving option' theory: the majority of the 18,000m+ DOESN'T border on that sim.

BUT, I do think you have described a very valid principle of human psychology, even if I don't happen to think it applies in this particular case.

There must be a lot of people who, like you, have been here a couple of years or more, who've been burned by the price fluctuations.

The 'play money' factor seems a lot more real when you get into the hundred-thousands of Lindens!

In re the laggy sim---yeah, that's something that seems unfixeable, at this time, anyway. It can hurt to pull up stakes and move, I can imagine---even though it's just pixels on a screen. (It doesn't FEEL like just pixels on a screen!)

Best deal I had and it changed how I felt about land trader was having postive experience with one I traded some land near my home in Bluehound he had and and some few thousand L once.
It gave me new experience and helped me see others as good people even if they are land trading even though the often perception is they are uncaring land traders are known to be money grubby, untrusting and greedy.
It was lesson in trust and this risk worked.

The nice thing about the Linden system, though, is that all parts of the transaction can be transparent to all. And at the present moment, I see no reason to abandon that excellent system.

I've dealt with some 'trust' issues in a minor way: someone wanted me to buy their 512m and they would buy a 1024m of mine. They didn't have enough Lindens so I had to 'go first' (and did, even though the 512 in question wasn't very attractive or saleable, not to insult the person, but there it is).

I don't think I'd care to do that with larger parcels, though. Not with a stranger.

One good thing to always bear in mind is that the most reliable tool in the successful con artist's toolkit is the phrase "I trust you".

And the mark, of course, not wanting to look small-minded or fearful, says "I trust YOU" in return.

That's how the con is worked.

(And I prefer to keep my knowledge of this purely academic...so I don't go for the swap deals on any scale larger than the one I mentioned. Life is interesting enough already!)

Yes it was major thing for me to do trade I had like 4 different 512m lots further away from sim and I wanted his 4 that were near mine luckily I had enough tier to do it.
I paid 4k for lot he got one of mine for 0, the other 3 were just swapped.
He knew I just was artist and I just wanted the land to be bigger for my canvas and I was grateful he took that risk with me and it worked.

Well, I'm glad that worked out, and I'm sure that sort of thing has worked out with other people, before.

I suppose it's a 'feel out the particulars' sort of thing. Developing one's own instincts about a situation is a worthwhile pursuit.

Yeah it was lucky situation for me and him and he still got 10k a plot which was going price plus 4k which gave him around 44k and left me with good feeling about land traders.
I haven't done that since with strangers although.

Pays to be cautious. Especially now, with the world-wide economic troubles---I think that when times are tough in RL, people find it easier to justify getting cash Any Way Possible, both in RL and in SL.

Which isn't the same thing as saying 'assume everyone is a crook'...it's more 'keep an open mind and be alert, as to who's a person of integrity and who might be a little more....flexible'.

I once had a person say they lost some things and will I replace, and its particularly sad for her because her RL husband had died the previous day.
I found this odd because if my wife had died the day before I think the last thing Id be doing is SL the day after, but it takes allsorts, thing with SL is you have no idea about the person you are talking to, I found it slightly insulting the person thinks they need to add this to convince me to be fair, I would have been anyway..

The above situation(death of loved one previous day) has happened about 4 times, I have also had people saying "please help me because I have AIDS and SL is my only outlet now".

In all these cases I simply prpceed as if I did not hear that part, I just deal with them as fairly as I would any other person.

Yes Ill admit its kinda sad if people make these things up to ply you, and you are inclined to think its not true because the anonymity of SL is frequently used for dishonesty, add to that the fact so many people seem to use this option when trying to get something from you.

I would suggest treating the person as you would anyway and forget they said that part, or if its trully weighing on you, sell them the land, come back a week or so later and see if the land still belongs to that person.

I have to say I have met people with lot of real life tragedies going on who may truly being
sincere just want kindness but sometimes even them just needing things feels draining so I can
relate especially if you're going through your own stuff and very nice person want to be there for others.
Yet there is also like lot of people with real tragedies going on that don't share personal information as means to use it to gain sympathy i.e I got it hard, give me, give me aka emotionally blackmail nor expect anything from anyone.
I got lot of real major first life stuff happen too, I keep it to myself but I don't expect others to treat me any way different.
I have had a few people do very kind things for me, but I don't expect it, and if I thought they were doing it after the fact or before because they felt sorry for me I probably wouldn't accept anything they may offer me.

I think 'Shameless' is the right word sometimes.

I would be ashamed to be an emotional blackmailer. If my circumstances changed or i had sentimental reasons for wanting to reduce or increase my holdings in SL, I might (just might) divulge them to my landlord or the person i wanted to purchase from, but NOT in any hope of special treatment, and only because i trusted them on a personal level.

I dont want pity, or special treatment. I guess its just the way I am.

imogen

Buying land in SL is a lot like RL. It never hurts to offer a lower price. The stories are usually better left unsaid.

If you follow the logic that they wanted the parcel because it boarders a protected sim with the same name as dear lost uncle whoever ... that means the parcel is more valuable to them and therefore they should be willing to pay a higher price. Try making a counter-offer for more than what it is currently priced.

That made me laugh out loud.

I guess because I was imagining the reaction of a would-be fleecer-of-the-gullible, to being offered a HIGHER price...!!!

Well, that's just it. I feel the same way...if I did something like that my skin would crawl with self-disgust.

But there's no denying that there are people who would take actual PRIDE in having bamboozled someone. I just wonder if this is a product of upbringing, or of brain damage*, or of some combination.



*there is a lot of evidence that sociopathic behavior---taking pleasure in harming others---is correlated with lesions or other damage to the frontal lobe area of the brain. One account: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n07/doencas/disease_i.htm

Well, there you go. Most of us do.

If someone bought a parcel from me and then AFTER the purchase IMed and said 'this really means a lot to me because of the name of the sim is the same as the name of my uncle who just died'------then I would be touched, and would believe the person sincere.

Because at that point, they wouldn't have any incentive to lie.

Anytime there's an incentive---financial gain being a big one---to lie, some people will lie.

Exactly.

Whether the person was deliberately being manipulative or not----it comes across as manipulative, and as making the assumption that you will behave fairly ONLY if you are being manipulated.

Which is an insult.






I think that's a very sensible approach.