Second Life Forums Archive - Help: Which Linden to ask about a game's legality?

Liam Tairov

Registered User

Join date: 20 Nov 2007

Posts: 58

08-12-2008 11:15

Hello,

Does any one know which Linden we should contact about the legality of a particular game in SL? Also, how long does it usually take them to decide if a game is prohibited?

I've searched the forums but in the recent posts cannot find mention of a specific person to contact. Only that some game owners have invited the Lindens to inspect their establishments.

Perhaps we should submit a ticket to support?

Our game is a Texas Holdem Poker HUD where the player just plays 9 bots.
It doesn't interact with other HUDs or objects.
It doesn't take or give L$, beans, coupons or any other object.
In short, only one person at a time can play it.
There is no prize, just the satisfaction of beating the bots.

We don't want to release the game until we have some kind of approval.

Does anyone think our game will be banned?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Viktoria Dovgal

…

Join date: 29 Jul 2007

Posts: 3,593

08-12-2008 11:27

Try to make time for these meetings:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours/GTeam

The process for games is murky at best, direct talk at office hours might be your best bet for learning out how to navigate the mess.

_____________________

Sindy Tsure

Will script for shoes

Join date: 18 Sep 2006

Posts: 4,103

08-12-2008 11:33

The rule is: (from https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4532 )

From: Lindens

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life© environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

(1)
- (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR
- (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND
(2) provide a payout in
- (a) Linden Dollars, OR
- (b) any real-world currency or thing of value.

So...

From: Liam Tairov

It doesn't take or give L$, beans, coupons or any other object.
There is no prize, just the satisfaction of beating the bots.

That sounds legal to me, since you're not paying in anything that can be converted to cash.

Imnotgoing Sideways

Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=

Join date: 17 Nov 2007

Posts: 4,694

08-12-2008 11:39

I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^)

The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y

_____________________

Somewhere in this world; there is someone having some good clean fun doing the one thing you hate the most. (^_^)y

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ferguson/54/237/94

Ordinal Malaprop

really very ordinary

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 4,607

08-12-2008 11:43

If it doesn't actually award a prize - or at least, a prize beyond satisfaction, or even a scoring table - it isn't "gambling". You might want to make sure that this is appreciated by having lots of signs saying "NO PRIZE GIVEN", "FREEPLAY", "FOR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY" and so on but given the sort of blatant gambling that is apparently "approved" these days I believe that you would be very unlucky to have any sort of problem.

_____________________

http://ordinalmalaprop.com/forum/ - visit Ordinal's Scripting Colloquium for scripting discussion with actual working BBCode!

http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal

http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names

Liam Tairov

Registered User

Join date: 20 Nov 2007

Posts: 58

08-12-2008 14:19

From: Imnotgoing Sideways

I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^)

The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y

We are going to visit the office meeting first and see if anyone will chat with us. Depending on the outcome we might then have to consider making an Abuse Report against our own machine.

I guess if anyone is going to report our game for abuse, it might as well be us.

Thank you to everyone who replied - there is lots of good information here for us to think about.

Liam Tairov

Registered User

Join date: 20 Nov 2007

Posts: 58

08-13-2008 23:55

From: Imnotgoing Sideways

I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^)

The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y

Yes, we went to G-Team meeting place, but found that looking at G-Team avatar profile - they don't want to discuss legalities of a machine, or even receive any questions or IMs about it.

You are right, there is no point trying to find guidance from Linden Labs.

We have now decided to just release game when finished, but put up lots of info as suggested in Ordinal's reply.

Rhaorth Antonelli

Registered User

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 7,425

08-14-2008 00:45

you need to remember they are employees following directions as given to them

being the gaming (gambling) is a touchy legal subject, I am sure they are just trying to be cautious and save their own ass.

Also as was told to me, it is best to get the official reply via the reporting it route, that way no one linden is held responsible.

(If I were them I would do the same thing they do, it is too easy to be misquoted and caught up in a very nasty legal issue, and if they say yes such and such game is legal, then someone will make a game with the same name, but the illegal properties and then claim.. well I heard this game was legal)

Nasty situation I would not want to be in

so saying you will not get help is false, since obviously you have not gone through the correct channels (ie report your own game to see if it is taken down)

_____________________

From: someone

Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar.

They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life...

Liam Tairov

Registered User

Join date: 20 Nov 2007

Posts: 58

08-14-2008 05:33

From: Rhaorth Antonelli

you need to remember they are employees following directions as given to them

being the gaming (gambling) is a touchy legal subject, I am sure they are just trying to be cautious and save their own ass.

Also as was told to me, it is best to get the official reply via the reporting it route, that way no one linden is held responsible.

(If I were them I would do the same thing they do, it is too easy to be misquoted and caught up in a very nasty legal issue, and if they say yes such and such game is legal, then someone will make a game with the same name, but the illegal properties and then claim.. well I heard this game was legal)

Nasty situation I would not want to be in

so saying you will not get help is false, since obviously you have not gone through the correct channels (ie report your own game to see if it is taken down)

I fully agree with you and I should have chosen my words more carefully. I'm sure the LL staff would like to help but have to follow rules.

This situation with games in SL is a minefield - and what is acceptable today might be unacceptable tomorrow. All it takes is bad press coverage or some credit card company to take issue with something. I would much prefer that LL erred on the side of caution and banned a game rather than allow it and have SL closed down.

As for our game, filing an Abuse Report against our selves seems kind of scary but seems the best option for peace of mind.

Imnotgoing Sideways

Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=

Join date: 17 Nov 2007

Posts: 4,694

08-14-2008 06:43

From: Liam Tairov

Yes, we went to G-Team meeting place, but found that looking at G-Team avatar profile - they don't want to discuss legalities of a machine, or even receive any questions or IMs about it.

You are right, there is no point trying to find guidance from Linden Labs.

We have now decided to just release game when finished, but put up lots of info as suggested in Ordinal's reply.

That kinda reiterates what I said at first. There is no one Linden that will help you. It's simply a matter using the existing governance methods to your benefit. (^_^)

From: Liam Tairov

...As for our game, filing an Abuse Report against our selves seems kind of scary but seems the best option for peace of mind.

Really, just word the AR properly and it will be fine. The worst that could happen is that you could be so low in the triage queue that your report could be ignored altogether. While not an 'all clear' it is enough for peace of mind in my point of view. (^_^)y

_____________________

Somewhere in this world; there is someone having some good clean fun doing the one thing you hate the most. (^_^)y

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ferguson/54/237/94

Aree Lulibub

Registered User

Join date: 21 Jan 2007

Posts: 198

08-14-2008 07:41

I have never had any trouble getting them to discuss gambling at a GTeam meeting. They just can't discuss individual cases. Here is how it was explained by Michael when he was still on the team. If you put something of value in and receive something of value out, then it's against TOS. It sounds to me like your machine is completely legal and I hope you get the answer you want from LL.

Help: Which Linden to ask about a game's legality?
Liam Tairov Registered User Join date: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 58	08-12-2008 11:15 Hello, Does any one know which Linden we should contact about the legality of a particular game in SL? Also, how long does it usually take them to decide if a game is prohibited? I've searched the forums but in the recent posts cannot find mention of a specific person to contact. Only that some game owners have invited the Lindens to inspect their establishments. Perhaps we should submit a ticket to support? Our game is a Texas Holdem Poker HUD where the player just plays 9 bots. It doesn't interact with other HUDs or objects. It doesn't take or give L$, beans, coupons or any other object. In short, only one person at a time can play it. There is no prize, just the satisfaction of beating the bots. We don't want to release the game until we have some kind of approval. Does anyone think our game will be banned? Any suggestions are welcome.
Viktoria Dovgal … Join date: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 3,593	08-12-2008 11:27 Try to make time for these meetings: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours/GTeam The process for games is murky at best, direct talk at office hours might be your best bet for learning out how to navigate the mess. _____________________
Sindy Tsure Will script for shoes Join date: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 4,103	08-12-2008 11:33 The rule is: (from https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4532 ) From: Lindens It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life© environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games: (1) - (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR - (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, AND (2) provide a payout in - (a) Linden Dollars, OR - (b) any real-world currency or thing of value. So... From: Liam Tairov It doesn't take or give L$, beans, coupons or any other object. There is no prize, just the satisfaction of beating the bots. That sounds legal to me, since you're not paying in anything that can be converted to cash.
Imnotgoing Sideways Can't outlaw cute! =^-^= Join date: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 4,694	08-12-2008 11:39 I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^) The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y _____________________ Somewhere in this world; there is someone having some good clean fun doing the one thing you hate the most. (^_^)y http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ferguson/54/237/94
Ordinal Malaprop really very ordinary Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 4,607	08-12-2008 11:43 If it doesn't actually award a prize - or at least, a prize beyond satisfaction, or even a scoring table - it isn't "gambling". You might want to make sure that this is appreciated by having lots of signs saying "NO PRIZE GIVEN", "FREEPLAY", "FOR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY" and so on but given the sort of blatant gambling that is apparently "approved" these days I believe that you would be very unlucky to have any sort of problem. _____________________ http://ordinalmalaprop.com/forum/ - visit Ordinal's Scripting Colloquium for scripting discussion with actual working BBCode! http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names
Liam Tairov Registered User Join date: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 58	08-12-2008 14:19 From: Imnotgoing Sideways I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^) The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y We are going to visit the office meeting first and see if anyone will chat with us. Depending on the outcome we might then have to consider making an Abuse Report against our own machine. I guess if anyone is going to report our game for abuse, it might as well be us. Thank you to everyone who replied - there is lots of good information here for us to think about.
Liam Tairov Registered User Join date: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 58	08-13-2008 23:55 From: Imnotgoing Sideways I've been to the G-Team meetings often and particularly when this subject came up... There is no one Linden that will do you the favor of examining your machine for it's legality. But, the tip that we got was to Abuse Report your own machine. In reaction, a G-Team Linden should check it out to be sure it's within the TOS/Blog rules and return or blacklist it if a violation is found. (^_^) The only cruddy part, is that it's a no-news-is-good-news situation. So, basically give a day or two after the AR before you can be confident that you got the all clear. (^_^)y Yes, we went to G-Team meeting place, but found that looking at G-Team avatar profile - they don't want to discuss legalities of a machine, or even receive any questions or IMs about it. You are right, there is no point trying to find guidance from Linden Labs. We have now decided to just release game when finished, but put up lots of info as suggested in Ordinal's reply.
Rhaorth Antonelli Registered User Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 7,425	08-14-2008 00:45 you need to remember they are employees following directions as given to them being the gaming (gambling) is a touchy legal subject, I am sure they are just trying to be cautious and save their own ass. Also as was told to me, it is best to get the official reply via the reporting it route, that way no one linden is held responsible. (If I were them I would do the same thing they do, it is too easy to be misquoted and caught up in a very nasty legal issue, and if they say yes such and such game is legal, then someone will make a game with the same name, but the illegal properties and then claim.. well I heard this game was legal) Nasty situation I would not want to be in so saying you will not get help is false, since obviously you have not gone through the correct channels (ie report your own game to see if it is taken down) _____________________ From: someone Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life...
Liam Tairov Registered User Join date: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 58	08-14-2008 05:33 From: Rhaorth Antonelli you need to remember they are employees following directions as given to them being the gaming (gambling) is a touchy legal subject, I am sure they are just trying to be cautious and save their own ass. Also as was told to me, it is best to get the official reply via the reporting it route, that way no one linden is held responsible. (If I were them I would do the same thing they do, it is too easy to be misquoted and caught up in a very nasty legal issue, and if they say yes such and such game is legal, then someone will make a game with the same name, but the illegal properties and then claim.. well I heard this game was legal) Nasty situation I would not want to be in so saying you will not get help is false, since obviously you have not gone through the correct channels (ie report your own game to see if it is taken down) I fully agree with you and I should have chosen my words more carefully. I'm sure the LL staff would like to help but have to follow rules. This situation with games in SL is a minefield - and what is acceptable today might be unacceptable tomorrow. All it takes is bad press coverage or some credit card company to take issue with something. I would much prefer that LL erred on the side of caution and banned a game rather than allow it and have SL closed down. As for our game, filing an Abuse Report against our selves seems kind of scary but seems the best option for peace of mind.
Imnotgoing Sideways Can't outlaw cute! =^-^= Join date: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 4,694	08-14-2008 06:43 From: Liam Tairov Yes, we went to G-Team meeting place, but found that looking at G-Team avatar profile - they don't want to discuss legalities of a machine, or even receive any questions or IMs about it. You are right, there is no point trying to find guidance from Linden Labs. We have now decided to just release game when finished, but put up lots of info as suggested in Ordinal's reply. That kinda reiterates what I said at first. There is no one Linden that will help you. It's simply a matter using the existing governance methods to your benefit. (^_^) From: Liam Tairov ...As for our game, filing an Abuse Report against our selves seems kind of scary but seems the best option for peace of mind. Really, just word the AR properly and it will be fine. The worst that could happen is that you could be so low in the triage queue that your report could be ignored altogether. While not an 'all clear' it is enough for peace of mind in my point of view. (^_^)y _____________________ Somewhere in this world; there is someone having some good clean fun doing the one thing you hate the most. (^_^)y http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ferguson/54/237/94
Aree Lulibub Registered User Join date: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 198	08-14-2008 07:41 I have never had any trouble getting them to discuss gambling at a GTeam meeting. They just can't discuss individual cases. Here is how it was explained by Michael when he was still on the team. If you put something of value in and receive something of value out, then it's against TOS. It sounds to me like your machine is completely legal and I hope you get the answer you want from LL.

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