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Tracking IP addresses

Marco Cascabel
Registered User
Join date: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 2
11-14-2007 17:19
I was in a sim before discussing an avie who we thought was an alt of another sim member. Someone said that they knew what his IP address was and could compare it with the alt when they appeared in the sim. The guy telling me this was not the sim owner. I thought the only way to read an IP address was through a video/audio stream. Is it possible to read the IP's of others in a sim?
Victoria Kemsley
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 23
11-14-2007 17:22
Sure they can, and they are also tapping your phones and reading your mail. The answer is no, but don't tell that to all the folks hiding in thier basements from the black helicopters.
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
11-14-2007 17:33
From: Marco Cascabel
I was in a sim before discussing an avie who we thought was an alt of another sim member. Someone said that they knew what his IP address was and could compare it with the alt when they appeared in the sim. The guy telling me this was not the sim owner. I thought the only way to read an IP address was through a video/audio stream. Is it possible to read the IP's of others in a sim?

Only if they have access to the administrative panel of Shoutcast/Icecast where you can find such numbers, and the scanner tracking the avatar.
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Theo Kline
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Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 224
11-14-2007 18:02
There is a way to get avatar's Ip addresses in SL. It's not an easy thing to do. I've replied to thread questions like this before.

If this person claiming he can, me might. It's not an easy catch tho. If he knows the Ip of the one person as you stated. It's a process of using a modified 'packet sniffer'. It can log all incoming and outgoing packets to your computer showing all the details(chats/IM's can be traced). It would take the person a long period of time after searching the packet sniffer logs to find it. It's not a on the fly process unless someone made something new. Which wouldn't surprise me since SL is open source.
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
11-14-2007 18:07
*puzzled* I assume you mean that the IP addrs of nearby residents are embedded in some packet that SL sends to other clients?

Why on earth would that be? Is something being explicitly multicast?
Theo Kline
(???)
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 224
11-14-2007 18:21
Not explicitly multi casted, but embedded in files.

It can be done on any messenger program, ie, MSN, Yahoo, AIM, Xfire, etc. Don't forget your IP address is also embedded in every email you send.

Another example, most of us can't see it but on every post of yours on these forums and others, your IP address is logged next to the post # for mods and admins to see. (makes it easier to ban the jerks mostly)

As for the SL way, I highly doubt said person can unless he's built or obtained a program compiled off the open source of SL. Anyone with any programming training/knowledge could do it. I just have better things to do then spend hundreds of hours on finding an IP.

Lucky for us most greifers are not hackers. ;)
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Nyoko Salome
kittytailmeowmeow
Join date: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
11-14-2007 18:29
don't ever ever -ever- take someone's jokey reply as confirmation that you are completely safe ('only the paranoid survive';).

i think that recent copyright-case investigations show that some ip addresses can be hunted down... so, yah, no 'nothing is really safe' depending. not to be scary or anything about it... just mostly probably depends how much someone really wants to know about you. :\ standard 'id-theft' b.s. :\ but it's certainly not 'casual use stuff', so if someone's just 'putting others on pretending how bad-ass they are'... probably can count upon that.

(and frankly if they're so insistful that they are that 'all-knowing, all-seeing', i wouldn't wanna feel like hanging out with them anyways. y'know;) 'not great partiers', they are.;)
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Aldia Jewell
Registered User
Join date: 1 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
11-14-2007 19:19
From: Theo Kline
Not explicitly multi casted, but embedded in files.

It can be done on any messenger program, ie, MSN, Yahoo, AIM, Xfire, etc. Don't forget your IP address is also embedded in every email you send.

Another example, most of us can't see it but on every post of yours on these forums and others, your IP address is logged next to the post # for mods and admins to see. (makes it easier to ban the jerks mostly)

As for the SL way, I highly doubt said person can unless he's built or obtained a program compiled off the open source of SL. Anyone with any programming training/knowledge could do it. I just have better things to do then spend hundreds of hours on finding an IP.

Lucky for us most greifers are not hackers. ;)


Theo i am sorry to blow your bubble, but i DO work with thes kind of things on a daily business, and trust me when i say there is NO way in HELL you can track another player of SL, in such an way the only ones whom could do it WOULD be LL them self,, and NOT another player... If it were possible for a player to be able to track another player, SL would be in violations of at lest 10 international laws concerning Privacy...
Also take a game as WoW, were there are more contact person to person then there is in SL. there one person can't i say again.. CAN'T track another person.... and to clearifie as to why it cant be done in SL aswell.. IN SL IF you sent an IM to someone.. Then your IM, gos to the server. Whom add's and SL name adress to the IM that is sent to the person whom you wish to contact.. NOW that adress is easy to find,, HECK if you have SL set to sent all OFFLINE im's to your email you can even reply directly to it from your Email,, BUT thats beguse what your doing is to sent and message to SL server whom hold the knowlage about whom your contacting and then sents it on,, IF you were able to see the IP of the sender of the IM you recive you would quickly be able to find the location of that IP. and its quickly Simple, that IP is LL sorry to blow the bubble *Winks*
Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
11-14-2007 19:25
From: Aldia Jewell
If it were possible for a player to be able to track another player, SL would be in violations of at lest 10 international laws concerning Privacy...


Linden Labs is above the law!
Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
11-14-2007 19:27
From: Theo Kline
Not explicitly multi casted, but embedded in files.

It can be done on any messenger program, ie, MSN, Yahoo, AIM, Xfire, etc. Don't forget your IP address is also embedded in every email you send.

Yes, it's explicitly inserted into the headers by the SMTP relay. The messengers you talk about rely on direct client to client comms for chatter (ie. no intermediary server required), so obviously the IP address is easily available.

Completely different ballgame in SL however, because direct client to client contact doesn't occur. An LL server is *always* in the middle, and it does *not* pass on the IP information.
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Amity Slade
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Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
11-14-2007 19:34
Though such data shouldn't be passed from Linden Labs to a user's computer, that does not mean that it isn't. It wouldn't surprise me that data that comes in to Linden Labs may accidentally be passed out, the remnant of a debug feature that was not properly closed or something.

Second Life has so many technical problems all the time, why is it inconceivable that it would have such a security breach?
Markubis Brentano
Hi...YAH!!
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 836
11-14-2007 19:37
From: Walker Moore
Yes, it's explicitly inserted into the headers by the SMTP relay. The messengers you talk about rely on direct client to client comms for chatter (ie. no intermediary server required), so obviously the IP address is easily available.

Completely different ballgame in SL however, because direct client to client contact doesn't occur. An LL server is *always* in the middle, and it does *not* pass on the IP information.




Has LL fixed the bug that showed the other persons REAL e-mail address if they respond to someones in world IM?

(my point being...if I could "accidentally" see a friends RL email address because they respond to my IM while they are not in SL...then couldn't it be possible to see an IP address?)
Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
11-14-2007 19:44
From: Markubis Brentano
Has LL fixed the bug that showed the other persons REAL e-mail address if they respond to someones in world IM?

(my point being...if I could "accidentally" see a friends RL email address because they respond to my IM while they are not in SL...then couldn't it be possible to see an IP address?)
Well, your email client attaches that information of course. LL simply fail to parse it correctly because the format may be unpredictable.

As they've written their own IM and chat protocols, yes, I think they're likely to have a pretty solid grip on the information being sent over.

Although the point of my post was that direct contact is never established between two clients - meaning the IP address isn't available like it is to messenger software - I do believe that if IP address information was being leaked then it would've been picked up on by now - given all the attention on the client since it went open source, and the fact reverse engineering projects are still underway (like OpenSim). I honest to god think we'd all know about it very quickly if it was happening.
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
11-14-2007 19:52
/me also calls BS on most of this. SL isn't P2P - you only talk to the server. Geeky land owners might be able to get some IPs but that's about it.
Theo Kline
(???)
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 224
11-14-2007 19:54
From: Aldia Jewell
Theo i am sorry to blow your bubble, but i DO work with thes kind of things on a daily business, and trust me when i say there is NO way in HELL you can track another player of SL, in such an way the only ones whom could do it WOULD be LL them self,, and NOT another player... If it were possible for a player to be able to track another player, SL would be in violations of at lest 10 international laws concerning Privacy...
Also take a game as WoW, were there are more contact person to person then there is in SL. there one person can't i say again.. CAN'T track another person.... and to clearifie as to why it cant be done in SL aswell.. IN SL IF you sent an IM to someone.. Then your IM, gos to the server. Whom add's and SL name adress to the IM that is sent to the person whom you wish to contact.. NOW that adress is easy to find,, HECK if you have SL set to sent all OFFLINE im's to your email you can even reply directly to it from your Email,, BUT thats beguse what your doing is to sent and message to SL server whom hold the knowlage about whom your contacting and then sents it on,, IF you were able to see the IP of the sender of the IM you recive you would quickly be able to find the location of that IP. and its quickly Simple, that IP is LL sorry to blow the bubble *Winks*



I'll just have to take your word for it, and the persons word that proved the theory was possible to me in SL by showing me my IP address while I've never contacted them outside of SL. *shrugs*


edit: No, I was not on any of their land when it happened. We were only talking by IM's. on completely different sims. *shrugs again*
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
11-14-2007 20:37
hmmm... couple of questions.

-- Had you EVER talked to him on his land, to your knowledge?
-- Had you ever given him any inventory?
-- Had he ever given you any?

Like others have said, this is client/server, not P2P. So it would almost have to be some sort of error, or perhaps stale debug code, left in LL's own protocols. I would think.

*resists the urge to crank up wireshark*
Bam Bu
Registered User
Join date: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 8
11-14-2007 20:39
Were you streaming music from your PC?
FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
11-14-2007 20:48
Heck what about those websites I have been to few in past but not recently that show you on there webpage listing your IP address with full name, even city where you live?
Residents don't always just stay in forums or inworld instant messages.
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Theo Kline
(???)
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 224
11-14-2007 21:59
From: Nika Talaj
hmmm... couple of questions.

-- Had you EVER talked to him on his land, to your knowledge?
-- Had you ever given him any inventory?
-- Had he ever given you any?

Like others have said, this is client/server, not P2P. So it would almost have to be some sort of error, or perhaps stale debug code, left in LL's own protocols. I would think.

*resists the urge to crank up wireshark*



-- He doesn't own land to my knowledge.
-- I have never giving him inventory directly, he's bought stuff from my store.
-- Nope.

I totally understand the way the system works. When people are smart enough in what they know, they can obviously do what it takes.

Since then, I run through a couple proxy servers now. Not that I have anything to hide. Long ago(before firewalls) I had someone connecting to one of my computers leeching my music files(among whatever else). I'm always cautious now.

I just always keep in mind, just because it designed to stop people from doing things doesn't mean it always does.


*looks to see what wireshark is*
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Dave Herbst
Registered User
Join date: 4 Sep 2004
Posts: 343
11-15-2007 01:39
If a land owner streams their own audio and visitors have streaming audio enabled, their IP's can be tracked. Running WHOIS will direct you to a neighborhood, but not a specific address or personal account info. That type of info can only be aquired by court order, and it's not a simple process.

Disclosing IP addresses to others in SL is a TOS violation, but if a land owner chooses to compare IP addresses to ban alts of griefers, no rules are broken. By the same token, falsely accusing someone of being another's alt by bluffing, is reportable.
Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
11-15-2007 01:45
From: Theo Kline
-- He doesn't own land to my knowledge.
-- I have never giving him inventory directly, he's bought stuff from my store.
-- Nope.

I totally understand the way the system works. When people are smart enough in what they know, they can obviously do what it takes.

Since then, I run through a couple proxy servers now. Not that I have anything to hide. Long ago(before firewalls) I had someone connecting to one of my computers leeching my music files(among whatever else). I'm always cautious now.

I just always keep in mind, just because it designed to stop people from doing things doesn't mean it always does.


*looks to see what wireshark is*


You "totally understand how the system works", yet you've never heard of wireshark. Interesting.
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
11-15-2007 02:38
I am no software expert but over the last 2 years I have picked up one or two ideas from other folk who are. Plus of course SL is not the only VR world I have visited and I have one or two ideas gleaned from there too. And no that’s not a pun.

Could I therefore suggest that folk who do understand these things give some consideration to what they post here on a semi public BB. Also we are not supposed to post exploits on SL's BBs.

I only post these comments because (a) I personally am not uptight about my own real life ID that is available to Linden Labs and one or two regular posters here and (b) I well remember the credit card security issues, copybot, texture snatchers, and other well-known security issues that have plagued Linden Labs over the last few years all of which used hacks and exploits gleaned from talking on public access sites
Theo Kline
(???)
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 224
11-15-2007 05:48
From: Stephen Zenith
You "totally understand how the system works", yet you've never heard of wireshark. Interesting.


What I meant was I understand that SL isn't a p2p, it's client/server(as it was stated before, sorry for not being clear enough).. and no, never heard of it. I use a program similar just a different name.
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