JPGrid: 捕らぬ狸の皮算用

Hi, it's reassuring to know we have such an oldbie who reads and understands Japanese

I read in another thread that you're worried about the JP grid. I too have joined the project but my opnion on its outcome and future quite differs from IZOU's. As much as I respect his opinion but calling the Lindens in charge "extraordinarily incompetent" was absolutely uncalled for.

Yes, it's getting postponed again and again and LL don't inform us about it as much as they normally do outside the JP grid, which tempts us to read too much into their intention. But why not blame it all on the 1.7 upheaval? It totally makes sense. They have very limited human resource (not trying to be disrespectful here ) and one can easily guess that the release of Japanese client and grand-opening of the JP grid do not (and prolly should not) get priority over all the people shrieking in agony in the virtual purgatory the update caused.

My project in the JP grid relies heavily on the localised client as I'm doing the translation of in-world tutorials like Ivory Tower. The fact they approved my project naturally implies that the client WILL be released, well, eventually. ...But then again, it's just another speculation *shrugs*.

Anyhooooo, I'd like to ask the Lindens to publish information on teh JP stuff in public places such as this forum just like they normally do about the rest of the grid. It's not the delay but the lack of info that can harm us in the worst places.

あううー、しまった日本語フォーラムだった。

とにかく、1.7のゴタゴタが落ち着くまでは、判断材料がない中であれこれ悪い方に推論しててもしょうがないと思います。万が一この話が雲散霧消したとしても、私は自分で土地を買って引き続きやるつもり。
のんびりまったりいきましょう。　　

リンデンさんにはタイムリーな情報公開を重ねてお願いいたします。

First, I don't know how to read Japanese. Second, I enjoy being here and feeling at a loss not understanding the language, although I will very quickly say I have much appreciation for the design aesthetics. IZOU's blog is clearly layed out very differently from many of the North American SL blogs I've seen. There's just something about it that may owe itself to cultural influence but his own unique spin, I'm sure. (Plus it doesn't hurt for him to have a watermelon in his inworld profile pic.) I don't know what he's saying, although your comments are fascinating, Chie.

I'm getting antsy to check out the Japanese grid expansion... what has the delay been pushed too? I have done a little reading on it but would like to learn more. Also, does that mean submitted content is still open or was that cut off awhile ago? I mean, do you guys even have some good bow animations yet? (And I don't say that lightly; I prefer bowing over handshakes by FAR.)

Communication is important and I don't know the whole story but I hope things will open up nicely.

I really look forward to visiting!

公平である。

Chie,

Yes, I'm old in SL years .

I agree completely that the lack of information is a problem. Any time you don't give a bunch of smart people enough information, they will speculate. . I hope you are right, and I do understand that 1.7 has been a big push. I also understand that localizing the client (and probably parts of the server software) is a big job.

Torley,

The built in bow animations are not really good Japanese bows, although they are better than nothing. I've been working on some Japanese style animations and poses (sitting, different bows for different degrees of formality, etc.). I am still learning Poser, though, so they are not ready for public viewing yet.

GREAT! That's what I felt too, actually... I'm looking forward to seeing your creations so when you have them out, do shout out about it!

まず、最初のポストがこういう内容であることを非常に残念に思っている
ことをお断りしておきます。

あの企画ってまだ有効だったの？

私自身はLL担当者から”選考方法は未定”という回答をもらった時点で
参加しないことに決めたのであまり関心が無かったのですが、

これだけの長期に渡ってなんのアナウンスも無いということは、つまり
放棄されたものだと思ってました。

土地を分配することは他の住人（特に最近入ったbasicな人達）から
大ブーイングが来るだろうし、普通に考えればまず無理。

日本向けサービスといっても、日本の法律は米国とはかなり違う。
性表現だめとか、賭博だめとか、富くじだめとか。
LLが両替もしてる現在、日本人が日本人向けエリアにカジノを持つ
ことはほとんど”黒”なわけで、そういったことをクリアにしなければ
日本人向けサービスをすることは無理。

JPGRID完全消滅で現状のまま以外に選択はないと思うけど。

Konichiwa, minna-san. I don't read Japanese either but you guys might be interested in this news byte that I found on Gamasutra.com, although it doesn't specificly have to do with seperate grids. I don't think the Lindens have announced this anywhere on here yet.

本当にそうですね。

OK, 公平である。どうも。

Elle, the reason I started this topic wasn't that I thought that Linden Labs wasn't working on internationalization, it was that there has been almost no public information on plans for setting up the JPgrid (dedicated Japanese-oriented sims). There was some early information in August when they set up these forums, then nothing. So when I read IZOU's blog, I wondered if it had fallen off the bottom of the Linden priority list.

From what others have said here, it does not sound so dire--IZOU is unhappy, but it sounds as though the JPgrid project is still active--just progressing very slowly. I am reassured, and as I mentioned a few posts back, I do understand that localizing software and content can be much more complicated than it seems when you start, especially for a US company working on support for asian (CJK) languages.

It would be nice to get a Linden status update, though.

SL初期のCharter Memberみたいなものと考えればいいのでは？　彼らはベータテストに参加することで4096sqmの土地を半永久的に所有する権利（monthly tierなし）を手に入れた。JPG参加者は、日本からの新規ユーザーのための公共施設を自分の時間を使って（テクスチャのアップロード代まで自己負担で）作ることで、その土地を管理する権利（あとから個人使用目的などに改変することは禁止）を得る。ブーイングの対象にはならないと思うけどどうですか？　それも不公平？
ちなみに10月9日にLL社員の一団が全ビルドの評価を行った結果、その権利を得たのは初期募集から２名、後期募集（フォーラムでの一般募集）から２名の みです。権利を得られなかったプロジェクト参加者には土地を購入・維持する選択権が与えられるほかは、通常と同じように土地の分配が行われるそうです。数 が少ないのは、オープン以後、新規ユーザーによる発展の余地を残すためだと私は理解しています。

実際、アメリカ人にとってもSLはかなり灰色ですよね。そもそもIRSにちゃんと申告してる人が何 人いるのかって話。訴訟大国なのに著作権／商標侵害へのLL側の対応もグレーだし。白黒ハッキリしてるのは、Teen Gridに大人がいるのを見つけたら速攻で永久追放とか、青少年保護問題だけなわけで。日本人向けサービスについても、どこまでループホールを塞いでクリ アにするかというのは、難しい問題ですね。
しかし、投資家の厳しい視線を注がれているSFのベンチャー企業が、そういう私たちでも想像できるレベルの法務的な問題を全く考慮に入れずに、新規雇用を含め相当の投資を必要とする新サービス発表を行ったとは考えにくいのですが、どうでしょうか？

IZOUさんはプロジェクトに参加され、私の主観で は最も美しいビルドを作られた方でもあり、またLL主導ではない日本人コミュニティ桃源郷を建設しているリーダー的存在でもあるので、彼の否定的意見には 説得力を感じるんですが、あなたの場合情報ゼロでなぜここまで言い切れるのか謎です。
というわけで、情報公開お願いします＞LL。「情報がない」という情報を元に推論が飛び交うなんて、かなりシュールな状況だと思います。

……って、なに私一生懸命になってるんだろう。信者かっての。

ホッホッホッ！そうよ。　　

Hi, it's good to see that many people are interested in JPGrid project. There might be some questions what I wrote on my blog last week for non Japanese readers. Let me shortly explain what I had said.

I mentioned about Linden's strange behavior on JPgrid as bellow.

1. No public announcement of voting result.
2. No plan has shown to keep the appliers' works.
3. Hardly see Japanese liaisons online lately.

It seems like Japanese version Second Life is now out of Linden's interest or in worst case it would be discontinued. That was my impression. The alter possibility is simply the JPGrid staff are not doing what they should do which I used words "extraordinarily incompetent", however I can not imagine anyone doesn't know how to proceed a PUBLIC PROJECT. So I thought they mean to leave JPGrid like this way.

Ok, it was only my speculation until I got answers for my worries from Linden by mail. They said that Linden will not announce the voting result to public and they do not care appliers erase their works. I think it shows what JPGrid priority is right now clearly. Sorry Chie, I did not tell you about this mail.

It's obvious Linden started JPGrid without well planed vision, so I knew that we could not expect all what they had told us. However, my friends and I did not calculate mercenary for the benefit of joining this project and did not hang back for challenging volunteer. It's because we believe that JPGrid would help new Japanese players and make Second Life world better. If not so, I did not build a totally unprofitable thing on the grid. It's much smarter to build a Japanese looking shopping mall instead and buy it in low price from Linden after project.

Many might think Linden are now working hard on Japanese client coding, but I do not think so. As Elle quote, they just found localization partner Alchemic Dream and start building it, I guess. Which day's news is that? As Arashiko mentioned, localizing a software to CJK is a very special work. I don't think Linden has staff for that. Maybe they had tried and failed. That make the prior schedule of JP client canceled, early September. But the delay of localization is not a problem at all. It is smart to build JP client based on version 1.7 since september plan didn't work. So it is natural to believe Linden has just started localization. Also it's much better than implementing buggy product and mess up whole one week like 1.7. Take time.

The real problem is the attitude of Linden. Should any public project hide the result? Should any project dump the work without using it? This is all about I am so unhappy or even angry. Linden should have announced the result right after voting and offered reasonable plan for keeping appliers works at least for one month after the grid open for public. Because the works are made for new players, not for beta player's fun.

I think all these miss judgments were made because of the lack of international knowledge. Linden Lab does not have a person who knows outside of the United States and willing to start world wide service without it now. That's the problem. You can obviously see it on Korean client project. Who would ever think that it worths to make Korean client for such a virtual world like SL? If someone briefly survey what type of net game they prefer in Korea, what kind of internet infrastructure they have at there and who are playing on the net, he will not going into there with UO, SWG, TSO and SL. I think even the most Korean players in SL would agree for this point. It's just waste of time. However, they might think the JP market is small as Korean market, but it's a wrong idea. Japan market has a potential market as large as north America. This wrong information might slow the whole JP project now. I could actually see Linden lost their passion after spending one month on JPGrid project, cos not many appliers as they expected. So they started Japanese liaisons to do something else. That's why they are disappeared.

Arashiko, thank you for worrying about JPGrid and start this thread. I found your reply on classified forum. I think you are very good in Japanese language, however the words you choose for this thread title is probably not as you really wanted to say. That sentence is a good joke when talking about fun things, but it turns to very sharp criticizing comment if used in serious talk. I understand you did not mean it Who teach you that?

And thank you Torley, Elle and Chie. It must be not comfortable guessing things without information. The truth is as I mentioned about the mail. Now I am waiting for GermanGrid result. If there is any difference between JPGrid and GermanGrid, that will be the final answer from Linden. I hope they will change their mind though.

Yes. It looks much easier in advance than it is in the middle. I have done this myself, with the help of a very talented Japanese partner company, and the result was good, but it was still very hard. There are many small details--just supporting Unicode is not enough. That is only a first step.

I'm sorry if it sounded very sharp. I understood it to be a saying similar in tone to the English "don't count your chickens before they hatch" (that is, don't jump to conclusions about how things will go). If it sounded insulting, that was not my intention. I read and understand Japanese much better than I speak or write it, I am afraid. I was only trying to start some discussion. My Japanese teacher taught me many proverbs--I guess I should be more careful using them . Thank you for explaining.

Lemonheart,

Please excuse this reply in English. My Japanese is not good enough to be clear with some of these concepts.

About gray areas...

SL is definitely in multiple gray areas of US law. Copyright and trademark "fair use" (which is always gray in US law ), tax and legal jurisdiction (as you say, because LL exchanges L$ for US$), ownership of virtual assets (mainland compared to Ansche land, for example) and so on. There are many of these gray areas where virtual worlds intersect with the physical world.

While the applicability of Japan's laws will be different from that of US law, I think the difference is not a huge barrier. I do think that any international SL services will require LL to hire experts in each country's laws, especially if they locate server machines in those countries (which is good for performance). However, I think that this will happen. It is not a completely new problem.

About beauty and official participation...

How to judge someone's work depends on the purpose. This is not special for international grids--it is true for the US grid as well. If I may be so bold, the Linden new user areas and common areas are much more pleasant than most private builds. Beauty is important in areas for new users. Starting in SL is very confusing. Would you start a visitor to Tokyo in the east side of Shinjuku? No, you start them in a quiet hotel, find them a guide. They will find the nightlife on their own later, once they learn some basics .

とりあえずQUOTEタグは閉じてくださーい。

参加資格がないというのはどういうことでしょう？　フォーラムで公開 募集していましたが？　このフォーラムを見ないことが多い日本からのユーザーにメールで個人的に告知することが不公平？　
まあとにかく、何をどうやっても不平不満を言う人は出てくるんだろうなということはおぼろげに理解できました。FIC問題と同じですね。

コレに関しても、 どうして事情をご存じなくてそこまで言い切れるのか謎です。 　LLはすでにいくつものケースに介入していますよ。自動車会社やサンリオ等の商標・著作物を使ってる人たちに、直接LLからやめるようにという要請が あったとか。問 題はそれが徹底していないことなのですが……。商標・著作権問題に関してはここで論ずるまでもなく、既にかなり議論がされていますので、フォーラムを検索 し てみて下さい。

議論をすりかえるのがお得意のようですが、私はアメリカでグレーだから日本で もグレーでよいとは言っていませんよ。難しい問題だけど、そこんとこまったく見通し立てずに新サービスの発表をしたとは考えにくいと言ったまでです。とは いえ、賭博と刑法に関する知識のご開帳、ありがとうございました。

さあ？ 　まあ、とりあえず、あなたがなぜ参加しなかったかについては誰も興味ないと思いますよ。

Lemonheart Lamington once hide his main account and appeared to Japanese SL Wiki as Rei Montagne. Wiki owner must decided to close BBS after his several under 18 way like rude behavior. He is working hard to stop JPGrid project and trying to destroy Japanese community in shadow. I assume this man as a griefer.

I don't know why this person want to hide SL from Japanese attention so much. Maybe he has some reason to hide in darkness alone. What he always claims is a share without working. So JPGrid appliers, Japanese group members, private island owners and anyone working hard in SL are his target to slander.

All his stories are based on his fantasy which he thinks someone get something in unfair way. And hi is obviously just confusing us and trying to bring us down to his position. It's not a opinion nor discussion, saying oposite things in different posts. He is just playing. We have been bothered by this man for a long time.

おっしゃる意味は分かります。いじめっ子ですね？

各言語化（特に、ここでは日本語化）のプロジェクトに関心をいただき、ありがとうございます！
皆様にはご心配をおかけしており、申し訳ない気持ちでいっぱいです。
少しでも安心していただくために、現在の状況の説明を差し上げたいと思います。

各国際地域（日本、韓国、ドイツ）のin-worldのコンテンツ開発は最終段階にあります。
現在は、オリエンテーションエリアの表示、notecard等の調整を行っているところです。

ウェブサイトの各言語化はほぼ完了をしておりますが、グラフィックや表現等の最終チェックを行っております。
ウェブサイトとin-worldのコンテンツの最終チェックが終了次第、同時に一般公開する予定です。

クライアントの各言語化はまだ開発途中の段階で、残念ながらウェブサイト、in-worldのコンテンツとの同時公開は出来ません。
そのため、初期のインターナショナル・ユーザの方々には引き続き英語クライアントをご使用いただくことになりますが、ウェブサイトとin-worldコンテンツについては、各言語化クライアント完成前に一般公開する予定です。


皆様の関心、ご協力は私どもの励みになります。
クライアントの開発が遅れてはおりますが、頑張って作業中ですので安心してお待ちください。

引き続き、皆様のご意見、ご感想をお待ち申し上げております！

It's better post it in English too, Makiko.

真紀子さん、助けていただいてありがとうございます。この情報は有用である。

必要ここにであるか？「Second Life Forums > International > Linden Announcements」は多分よりよい…

申し訳ございません。日本語は、執筆能力下手です。
皆さん、ここには日本語でもいいですよ。