What do you think of political symbols in SL?

... inspired by my latest entry, about the peace symbol I came across in SL.


Think of all the objects that you can build, all the signs you can make, and all the messages you can put on them. Think about how many there could be once SL officially launches-- especially when more users join from outside the US, from Europe and Asia.

For 'em, against 'em, don't care either way, not wild about 'em but it's a free virtual country, or what?

Never mind objects, what about politically charged avatars? What if someone put on a black (as in the human skin colour) avatar and started carying around a 40 of malt liquor and a bucket of fried chicken and talking like snoop-dog? Or dressed up as an asian and started being good at math? (ok, bad example)

Does re-enforcing racial stereotypes fall under the "offensive" catagory? What if they claimed that they were parodying the stereotype?

One of my favourite culture jams is going to a protest or rally with signs that subtly subvert the message of the gathering. (e.g. signs that say "I want things for free" at student tuition-hike protests.) I mention this to point out that it is difficult to define someone's intent when they do something, and when fights break out between factions in SL and someone has to decide who violated what usage policy, they will have their work cut out for them.

Um, I seem to have gone off on a tangent.

I'm all for political expression in SL. This is a platform for personal expression which for me involves political viewpoints and opens doors for some great discussions.

I don't mind political messages. Agree or disagree at least they create dialog and dialog leads to change.

What bothers me more is the RL porn/soft porn images I've found on huge spinning billboards in plain view.
But then obectification of women is something that really bugs me. Im sure someone out there will have just the opposite view as I do.

Come to think of it I suppose the existance of anything that raises the hairs on your neck is a spark for dialog and well, hopefully change.

As in everything else in SL, people are pretty free to build what they please, and everyone else is free to ignore it. Let them have their fun and put up their signs, slogans, country flags, whatevers. If having a flag of Ethiopia on the outside of their home makes them happy, who are we to say no.


-TK

We need to realize taht at least one country involved in the infrastructure of this system is the United States. Depending, of course, on where the servers for SL eventually end up, I suspect the company will remain subject to US law and the Constitution for a fair while.

So, within the limited considerations given to corporations who need to remain financially viable, we need to tolerate a very wide range of expression. We don't have to tolerate unreasonable behavior, and certainly can't accept illegal behavior or speech - such as hate speech - but we do have to tolerate basic American Free Speech.

I've seen things in the outlands that made me angry, but I - like all American adults - needed to remind myself that I enjoy my own freedoms ONLY because I tolerate seemingly bixarre and offensive behavior from others.

You can start this adventure by making rules about the "correctness" (Left or Right) of various types of speech, but I will warn you that you'll find yourself a vistim of those same rules one day. Since we have no virtual Constitution, and hence no appeal, or court system, there is no defense against totalitarianism - even if it was originally rooted in forcing us to "be considerate" to others.

Just remember, Folks: we are all adults here. Let behave like it. Otherwise, we will end up being treated like children. Then, there doesn't seem to be much point to this.


[But then I'm an officer of the Leftist, Liberals, and Lunatics group - accepting new members, by the way - so it's not unusual that I'd feel this way ;-)]




Kathy Yamamoto

Kathy brings up interesting points. Im most interested in the hate speech. So much so I started a new splinter thread under the "off topic" heading to discuss it further rather than redirecting this thread. Please post your thoughts on hate speech there.

Ok now that someone has brought this up, I am going to stray off topic a bit, I really want to know why these billboards are allowed. Compare this to Bel's Pleasure Cove, which was an extremely well done adult theme (maybe SLs first themed community), which came under pressure directly from Lindens.

Everything concerning Pleasure Cove was discreetly behind closed doors, these billboards are blatantly out there. We were given a choice with Bel's establishment, there is no choice with these billboards.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bel was one of the first to address sex in SL, or maybe the Lindens are overlooking the billboards for some other reason...?

dunno

I would like to see these billboards come down.

fen-

My understanding is that anything goes in the mature areas - as long as it isn't illegal. If the signs are visible (and that is a fuzzy term given that some people's software can draw farther than others) from the PG area, I would expect that they would have to be modified, moved, or pointed the other way.

While we don't have a proper Constitution, we DO have the seeds of one - the community guidleines - which we agree to follow, even as we talk about what changes might be needed in the future. The current agreement should be enforced equally and straightfowardly.



Kathy Yamamoto

Bel's "Pleasure Cove" is on a mature sim. Frankly, I had heard about it about it about a month after I started. It took another month after that to actually find it. Discreet? You bet.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I had a guy drop down on my deck a few weeks ago naked and wearing 3 "correct" male attachments AND breasts. It was funny until he decided to bump into my av repeatedly. I asked a Linden if that was acceptable and was told that it was a mature sim and the only issue they could address is if I asked him to leave and he didnt.

Well he did his thing & left but does that make that behavior acceptable?
I think the stance on the mature sims is very fuzzy and needs more clarification. Seems that some behind closed door things shouldnt be an issue and other "open air" scenarios SHOULD be an issue.
I'm not into making a bunch of stifling rules but since common sense isnt very common maybe we need guidlines that are clarified.

Hmm... I think the question is... are we on Cable TV-MA or HBO TV-MA?

*Warning: Dionysus Starseeker symbolism is ahead, proceed with caution. You have been warned!*

Cable TV-MA is "Southpark." Plenty of profanity and references to sex in all its forms, but no blatant sex. HBO TV-MA is "Passion Cove." Less cussing, usually, but SEX SEX SEX. Now... I think cussing is completly legal in the mature sims as a whole. No one really complains because they hear a "dirty word." Sex, on the other hand, while referred to, until now, hasn't really found it's way into the mix. Now we need to decide if we should pay the extra price so a few can enjoy the pleasures of humping innocent bystanders. This is where it's weird again.

In a PG sim, a little "sex talk" and certain words are permitted. Humping and the F-bomb are not. Killing is allowed and "accidental nudity" as well (Changing outfits). I think the only reason no one is really bothered by the accidental nudity is that the avatars are "ill-equipped."

Sex toys can be seen in a PG world, but not ones that aren't green or some other strange color, and they must be off and not in use. In cable mature world, the same rules apply. In HBO world, however, almost all rules are off.

The appropiate lines to be crossed are blurry. I... I haven't entirely come to my decision. I guess this is just a post to give the debate more solid ground to play with.

Btw... Go political symbols. Hooray for somewhat relevant self-expression!

(P.S. I realize that SL isn't TV... but I needed some grounds for comparison)

I think humping unwilling strangers falls under both these sections of the guidlines:


"Creating objects of content with the explicit purpose of impeding or interfering with the free movement of another resident in safe areas"

"Repeatedly transmitting undesired communication, whether by IM, chat or email to another resident."


On the other hand, walking around with your parts showing in the mature areas is just bad taste.





Kathy Yamamoto

the problem in misnomer's case being she was in a mature sim, which isn't a so-called "safe area". however, i think it clearly violates the second guideline you posted. "free speech" is moving around wearing those attachments. when you "hump" another avatar with those attachments, you are clearly communicating something to the person behind your avatar, and in almost any case, is undesired communication. lastly, and probably the least concern, is that it's immature. i MIGHT have done something like that back when i was 12 or 13, if i'd discovered i could create genitalia and attach it to my avatar's pelvis. but even then, i probably would have just worn it around, i've always had the presence of mind not to actively intrude on another person's activities, unless they're intruding on mine.

Well, actually, I'd like to postulate that there is a difference between a "mature" sim and an "unsafe" one. While all unsafe sims are mature ones, it is not true that all mature ones are unsafe ones.

I should not become upset if I see a man with three peni walking past me in Da Boom. On the other hand, I am NOT to be INTERFERRED with outside the Outlands. Am I correct in my understanding on these fine distinctions?

If I'm in a safe zone, you may bump me. Once or twice. Three or four if you're a clutz. You can build crap that gets in the way of my flight lanes. You can swear a blue streak - if that's necessary for you to express yourself. BUT, you cannot interfere with MY rights. You cannot assault my avatar, or make personal attacks on the person driving the avatar.

In fact, I will support your right to bear non-lethal defensive weapons in case someone DOES attempt to interfere with your avatar. I think it should be understood that we can use non-lethal weapons in our own defense - even if that is only to defend our own dignity.

Sorry to soapbox. Phil is absolutely right in his analysis of "undesired communication." However, I do not want to give up whatever concrete distinctions the Company Guidelines give us. It's important to me to be sure we keep all the rights given to us so far. The right to not be assaulted - even virtually - outside areas set aside for that experience is a right we should be very careful to preserve. I am willing to resort to minimal force in that enterprise.

KINETIC FORCEFIELDS AND BUBBLE GUNS FOR THE MASSES!

Uh…sorry. Us old leftists get carried away sometimes ;-)

I just wanted clarification in this grey area because some people might be very upset or offended by this type of "assult". Had the person flow or walked by or even stayed "dressed" that way it would have been more like, "whatever". After all, I was on a mature sim and yes these things happen.

However this is an attack of sorts. I was not in a damage area so I have no idea if they were or were not damage enabled peni. The bump, if once I may have thought were accidental and again would have been written off. I was not so upset by any of it but it did get me thinking since I know some people would have been very upset so I thought it was a question worth answering. Im still interested in a Linden perspective on the matter.

So, to tie this in with the original topic, I have no problems with ANY political symbols or speech - as long as they don't assault the dignity of me or my avatar, don't destroy the rights given to me by the Company or by virtue of my citizenship in the US or in cyberspace, and don't marginalize the powerless.

I may have other reservations after I think a bit more, but those are the top ones. Any problems with those?

Thanks for listening. :-)

I would hate to see too many rules being imposed on how people are allowed to express themselves in the mature areas. If you find a certain place offensive then you can avoid going there in the future. It's better to adjust the way you interact with the world according to your sensibilities than to expet the world to adjust itself to suit them. That's the nature of free speech.

Someone put up a giant spinning cube with pictures of women's behinds on it behind my house. Does it offend me? No. Do I find it immature and uncreative? you bet. But I think if that's the best thing that person could think of to do on their property then that's someone not likely to stay in SL for very long.

The same goes for someone who attaches phallic symbols to their forehead. That's what the rating system is for. Find it offensive? rate them negatively. Soon enough they won't be able to afford to build more phallic symbols.

SL is all about freedom. I'd hate to see that change, even if some things I see, like certain political symbols, offend me. It's their world too just as much as mine. What right would I have to force them to live by my subjective point of view?

I have a related question about the Washington Monument in SL. Was this intended specifically as a political symbol? Did its construction coincide with the Iraq War and was the decision to build it politically motivated by RL politics?

It's so interesting to see which types of RL landmarks are being replicated inside SL. Whether or not the Washington Monument was meant as a political statement or not, it's an interesting choice of American symbolism. Why *this* monument and not the Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore, for example? Or do those exist also and I just haven't seen them yet? Or maybe it was simply the easiest shape to build?

As far back as I can remember it's been here since before the recent global events.

The creator is George Busch, who is currently running the Rte 66/Americana project.

I have never asked him about his choice of SL name or about the monument, but his creations/ideas do seem to have an American theme

Good luck.