Second Life Forums Archive - What does Cory Doctorow think?

Jarod Godel

Utilitarian

Join date: 6 Nov 2003

Posts: 729

07-20-2005 06:36

Hamlet,

What does Cory Doctorow think of Jeska's answer to my question about modifying the client? It seems kind of two-faced of him to be in favor Google AutoLink and then promoting his book in a world where business and culture revolve so tightly around closed source software and a Terms of Service that makes it illicit to hack around with the software.

This seems like his kind of thing: hacking, IP rights, DMCA, etc. Has he ever commented on this?

_____________________

"All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight

Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

07-20-2005 09:10

I don't know what Cory thinks, but Devlin thinks that folks who do that are criminals.

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Jarod Godel

Utilitarian

Join date: 6 Nov 2003

Posts: 729

07-20-2005 09:49

Who modify their client? I didn't ask about people who exploit the game, I just asked about people who futz with the way their client works. You think they're criminals?

_____________________

"All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight

Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

07-20-2005 10:31

Yup. TOS says don't do it.

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Tiger Crossing

The Prim Maker

Join date: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,560

07-20-2005 10:48

Hacking the client isn't criminal, but then linking it to Linden Lab's servers and having it lie to them is against the terms of service. The concequence is a removal of LL's permission to access their servers, permanently.

Seems fair to me. If you or your computer lies to LL's servers, you and your computer aren't going to be allowed to talk to them anymore.

Hack the client all you want... Just DON'T link it to the servers. (Which makes it all moot anyway.

)

_____________________

~ Tiger Crossing
~ (Nonsanity)

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

07-20-2005 11:36

From: Tiger Crossing

Hack the client all you want... Just DON'T link it to the servers. (Which makes it all moot anyway.

)

Not entirely I think. If I and my friends want to bounce around in an anitgrav spacestation environment, one of us can hack the client to interpret the physics data supplied by The Grid in such a way that gravity was severely reduced or eliminated. We could construct an estate in what would be a wholly useless configuration of prims and scripts to a normal client, but would represent the intended environment to our hacked clients.

Now we've connected to The Grid; but we've not "lied" to the servers, only "lied" to ourselves to gain the type of environment in which we want to play. Do y'all really think LL care if we do this sort of thing? Does it threaten them at all if, in two months time, a hundred people are downloading our client and using it to connect to our estate to enjoy the station's environment? Does it do them any damage for other people to latch onto the idea and begin perpetrating similar hacks?

_____________________

Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net

Gleeb Gupte

Maker of big square stuff

Join date: 13 May 2005

Posts: 22

07-20-2005 11:53

if you want weightlessness, script it?

Jarod Godel

Utilitarian

Join date: 6 Nov 2003

Posts: 729

07-20-2005 12:00

I emailed Cory Doctorow earlier, and here's what he said:

From: Cory Doctorow

However, I in no way believe that Blizzard has any kind of obligation to allow modded clients on their servers. I may think that it's bad business to kick modders off and will decry it as such, but it's their own throat to cut. They don't owe anyone the right to play on their boxen.

As to the analogy to modding content on the client side: I believe that websites can take countermeasures -- including user-agent access- control, etc -- to keep people off of their pages. Again, I think it's a stupid thing to do, but just because it's stupid, doesn't mean I want to see it prohibited. I *don't* believe that they have the right to tell me how I can format pages on the client side once they've allowed me to download them.

That's only two paragraphs out of a many-paragraph reply, so if this is grossly out of context, I can post the rest of the email. I think the meat of the argument is that Linden Lab is welcome to block any connections to their server. That, I can agree with.

_____________________

"All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight

Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.

Tiger Crossing

The Prim Maker

Join date: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,560

08-06-2005 16:41

From: Jarod Godel

I think the meat of the argument is that Linden Lab is welcome to block any connections to their server. That, I can agree with.

And that's what I said.

_____________________

~ Tiger Crossing
~ (Nonsanity)

What does Cory Doctorow think?
Jarod Godel Utilitarian Join date: 6 Nov 2003 Posts: 729	07-20-2005 06:36 Hamlet, What does Cory Doctorow think of Jeska's answer to my question about modifying the client? It seems kind of two-faced of him to be in favor Google AutoLink and then promoting his book in a world where business and culture revolve so tightly around closed source software and a Terms of Service that makes it illicit to hack around with the software. This seems like his kind of thing: hacking, IP rights, DMCA, etc. Has he ever commented on this? _____________________ "All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	07-20-2005 09:10 I don't know what Cory thinks, but Devlin thinks that folks who do that are criminals. _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Jarod Godel Utilitarian Join date: 6 Nov 2003 Posts: 729	07-20-2005 09:49 Who modify their client? I didn't ask about people who exploit the game, I just asked about people who futz with the way their client works. You think they're criminals? _____________________ "All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	07-20-2005 10:31 Yup. TOS says don't do it. _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Tiger Crossing The Prim Maker Join date: 18 Aug 2003 Posts: 1,560	07-20-2005 10:48 Hacking the client isn't criminal, but then linking it to Linden Lab's servers and having it lie to them is against the terms of service. The concequence is a removal of LL's permission to access their servers, permanently. Seems fair to me. If you or your computer lies to LL's servers, you and your computer aren't going to be allowed to talk to them anymore. Hack the client all you want... Just DON'T link it to the servers. (Which makes it all moot anyway. ) _____________________ ~ Tiger Crossing ~ (Nonsanity)
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	07-20-2005 11:36 From: Tiger Crossing Hack the client all you want... Just DON'T link it to the servers. (Which makes it all moot anyway. ) Not entirely I think. If I and my friends want to bounce around in an anitgrav spacestation environment, one of us can hack the client to interpret the physics data supplied by The Grid in such a way that gravity was severely reduced or eliminated. We could construct an estate in what would be a wholly useless configuration of prims and scripts to a normal client, but would represent the intended environment to our hacked clients. Now we've connected to The Grid; but we've not "lied" to the servers, only "lied" to ourselves to gain the type of environment in which we want to play. Do y'all really think LL care if we do this sort of thing? Does it threaten them at all if, in two months time, a hundred people are downloading our client and using it to connect to our estate to enjoy the station's environment? Does it do them any damage for other people to latch onto the idea and begin perpetrating similar hacks? _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Gleeb Gupte Maker of big square stuff Join date: 13 May 2005 Posts: 22	07-20-2005 11:53 if you want weightlessness, script it?
Jarod Godel Utilitarian Join date: 6 Nov 2003 Posts: 729	07-20-2005 12:00 I emailed Cory Doctorow earlier, and here's what he said: From: Cory Doctorow However, I in no way believe that Blizzard has any kind of obligation to allow modded clients on their servers. I may think that it's bad business to kick modders off and will decry it as such, but it's their own throat to cut. They don't owe anyone the right to play on their boxen. As to the analogy to modding content on the client side: I believe that websites can take countermeasures -- including user-agent access- control, etc -- to keep people off of their pages. Again, I think it's a stupid thing to do, but just because it's stupid, doesn't mean I want to see it prohibited. I don't believe that they have the right to tell me how I can format pages on the client side once they've allowed me to download them. That's only two paragraphs out of a many-paragraph reply, so if this is grossly out of context, I can post the rest of the email. I think the meat of the argument is that Linden Lab is welcome to block any connections to their server. That, I can agree with. _____________________ "All designers in SL need to be aware of the fact that there are now quite simple methods of complete texture theft in SL that are impossible to stop..." - Cristiano Midnight Ad aspera per intelligentem prohibitus.
Tiger Crossing The Prim Maker Join date: 18 Aug 2003 Posts: 1,560	08-06-2005 16:41 From: Jarod Godel I think the meat of the argument is that Linden Lab is welcome to block any connections to their server. That, I can agree with. And that's what I said. _____________________ ~ Tiger Crossing ~ (Nonsanity)

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What does Cory Doctorow think?