Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Are current tools adequate to the task of implementing Customer Operated Governments

SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
04-11-2005 22:51
Are current tools adequate to the task of implementing Customer Operated Governments?

If not, what changes would be most useful?

Are improvements to the Group functions needed to make a government work more smoothly?
_____________________
-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-11-2005 22:52
Whoa. Too many posts too fast SuzanneC. You're spamming the forum.

Save them up and let them out slowly.

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
04-11-2005 22:54
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
Are current tools adequate to the task of implementing Customer Operated Governments

If not, what changes would be most useful?

Are improvements to the Group functions needed to make a government work more smoothly?

depends what ll wants to let people do.
at the moment, what ll wants to let people do, ll tries to implement in code.
so i'd say the tools are adequate to what ll permits, mostly.
_____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
04-11-2005 23:04
Spamming, as defined in the forum guidelines, means "multiple posts of the same topic or discussion." My questions are on distinct topics., and are thus not spam.
_____________________
-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-
Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
04-12-2005 05:45
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
Are current tools adequate to the task of implementing Customer Operated Governments?

If not, what changes would be most useful?

Are improvements to the Group functions needed to make a government work more smoothly?


No they are not adequate however, improvements need to be judiciously weighed before implimenting them in group settings.

Shadow.
_____________________
Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden>

New Worlds new Adventures
Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow.

Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel

Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel
http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions
OR Visit The Website @
www.slvisions.com
Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
04-12-2005 07:18
We do not want a government.

We need loosely-structured community associations and a grassroots movement of residents in a very loose network of such community associations from the ground up, that already has a successful track record for a long period of time, before we could even begin to talk about government -- if ever.

All talk of government here is starting from the top-down and not creating the necessary grassroots citizens' structures first, out of which government can flow naturally.

We need small, simple units of self-governANCE before there can ever be any talk of governMENT.

The current group land tools suck badly, as has been rehearsed elsewhere.

-- bugs in group objects, objects deeded to group disappear
-- bugs in permissions, a creator of an object put in the group sometimes can't even access his own object
-- flaws in the design -- officer recall can be triggered by any one member including rogue griefers, and steal land
-- treacherous officers can set the group's land to sale at any time and steal it even from people who have paid for it or put tier on it
--anyone can bork the group's tier by pulling their tier out without notice, subjecting the group's land to a seizure by Governor Linden
--group recall functions can be mistakenly be used by people merely trying to leave a vote proposal or simply a message
--group communication capacities especially for offline messages are inadequate, forcing many to use vote functions to override which are inappropriate and often mistakenly used to officer-recall
--an officer trying to move the group's land from one group to another, or from his own possession to the group or visa versa has a trail of potential mistakes he can make that can make him lose the land to vicious land scanners, or be double-billed on tier that in fact is covering the same piece of land.

I could probably list a dozen more flaws if I saw down with it. Group tools were designed just for the free wiki approach and for clubs and sexay avatar contests. They were never designed to be used seriously for community development and sharing of land and tier. They need to be overhauled completely.
_____________________
Rent land, homes, and shops at reasonable rates with great benefits from Ravenglass Rentals.
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
Please list the dozen more flaws, Random
04-12-2005 07:25
Please list the dozen more flaws, Random.

I don't participate in group actions much so I am not familiar with all the shortcomings.
_____________________
-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-
Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
04-12-2005 08:01
From: Random Unsung
We do not want a government.

We need loosely-structured community associations and a grassroots movement of residents in a very loose network of such community associations from the ground up, that already has a successful track record for a long period of time, before we could even begin to talk about government -- if ever.

All talk of government here is starting from the top-down and not creating the necessary grassroots citizens' structures first, out of which government can flow naturally.

We need small, simple units of self-governANCE before there can ever be any talk of governMENT.

The current group land tools suck badly, as has been rehearsed elsewhere.

-- bugs in group objects, objects deeded to group disappear
-- bugs in permissions, a creator of an object put in the group sometimes can't even access his own object
-- flaws in the design -- officer recall can be triggered by any one member including rogue griefers, and steal land
-- treacherous officers can set the group's land to sale at any time and steal it even from people who have paid for it or put tier on it
--anyone can bork the group's tier by pulling their tier out without notice, subjecting the group's land to a seizure by Governor Linden
--group recall functions can be mistakenly be used by people merely trying to leave a vote proposal or simply a message
--group communication capacities especially for offline messages are inadequate, forcing many to use vote functions to override which are inappropriate and often mistakenly used to officer-recall
--an officer trying to move the group's land from one group to another, or from his own possession to the group or visa versa has a trail of potential mistakes he can make that can make him lose the land to vicious land scanners, or be double-billed on tier that in fact is covering the same piece of land.

I could probably list a dozen more flaws if I saw down with it. Group tools were designed just for the free wiki approach and for clubs and sexay avatar contests. They were never designed to be used seriously for community development and sharing of land and tier. They need to be overhauled completely.


Quite true Random and hence why I mentioned that they need to be evaluated in depth before implimenting in world.
Even with an overhaul these are the critical tools for group functions and need to be checked and rechecked before allowing players control over them.

Additionally please list the rest to see if we have a compariable list as there is no need for me to post mine if you already have more than I have on my list.

Shadow
_____________________
Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden>

New Worlds new Adventures
Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow.

Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel

Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel
http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions
OR Visit The Website @
www.slvisions.com
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-12-2005 09:46
From: Random Unsung
We need small, simple units of self-governANCE before there can ever be any talk of governMENT.
Prokofy/Random's use of "governance" over "government" is an example of euphemistic language. Euphemistic language is a tool used to mask unpopular concepts. For instance, one may say "military action" instead of "war". In this case it's used as a tool to delegitimize the concept that government currently exists in SL.

What makes the substitution so awkward for me, is that the word "government" focuses on the organization, whereas "governance" focuses on the process and system. Nonetheless, when one states "governance", it does imply the existence of an entity with power, either governmental or corporate.


From Wikipedia:

A government is an organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory. There are several definitions on what exactly constitutes a government. In its broadest sense, "govern" means the power to administrate, whether over an area of land, a set group of people, or an association.

Although the term governance is often used synonymously with the term government it tends rather to be used to describe the processes and systems by which a government or governor operate. The term government and governor describe the institutions and people involved.



After reviewing their definitions, it is clear to me that LL has the power to make and enforce laws (ToS) for a certain territory (SL). It is unambiguously a government. The discussion of how they execute their government is a discussion of governance.

Thus, it's governance and government.


Besides, who says government has to evolve from scratch every single time? It's like saying an up-and-coming industrial nation has to build a steam-powered car before it gets into the business of manufacturing internal combustion engines. :rolleyes:

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Meilian Shang
crass and pornographic
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 242
04-12-2005 10:38
Could someone pass the calamari please? :D
Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
04-12-2005 12:01
No, current tools are not sufficient. In order to make player-run government realize its true potential the Lindens would have to add the following tools to any President's arsenal:

(1) Extort - Force Your Political Enemies to Pay Up - OR ELSE!!
(2) Ban Enemy of the State - Great for eliminating your meddlesome opposition
(3) Nationalize Industry - Eliminate your friend's competition
(4) Share the Wealth - Great for plundering the treasury
(5) Create New Department - Give your friends comfy jobs

Until this functionality is available for Player Run Government, I'm afraid all attempts at it will fall short.
Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
04-12-2005 12:36
From: someone
Besides, who says government has to evolve from scratch every single time?


Well, in this world, which is like some failed state, or struggling Third World economy moving from rapacious Marxist tyranny to oligarchic crony capitalism, it's important not to skip steps.

Citizens' actions and grassroots efforts are always blasted as "naive" or "euphemistic" by socialists because they are always a "superstructure in search of a base".

In this game, we've already seen a social democracy takeover toy get subsidized and get lots of love pats on the back. Alright already. Let's not keep doing that. Let's see what more democratic grassroots informal structures or relationships might form without all that dreck imposed from above, geh.
_____________________
Rent land, homes, and shops at reasonable rates with great benefits from Ravenglass Rentals.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-12-2005 15:18
From: Random Unsung
Well, in this world, which is like some failed state, or struggling Third World economy moving from rapacious Marxist tyranny to oligarchic crony capitalism, it's important not to skip steps.
A failed state (how)? A struggling Third World economy (huh)? A rapacious Marxist tyranny (a ravenous evolution of capitalism into socialism by revolution ruled by an oppressive power)?! Oligarchic crony capitalism (government by the few which are friends with a capitalist economy)? What are you even talking about?

It's like you're playing Mad Libs with a mix of political and economic buzz words. :rolleyes:

From: someone
Citizens' actions and grassroots efforts are always blasted as "naive" or "euphemistic" by socialists because they are always a "superstructure in search of a base".
Wha? I'm involved grassroots efforts in SL (boycotts, political parties, demands for ethical business practice) and RL (antiwar protests, rallies supporting the preservation of teacher, firefighter, and police pensions) and I'm a socialist. Show me where socialists blast grassroots efforts right now. (Better yet prove how they always do it.) :)

From: someone
In this game, we've already seen a social democracy takeover toy get subsidized and get lots of love pats on the back. Alright already. Let's not keep doing that. Let's see what more democratic grassroots informal structures or relationships might form without all that dreck imposed from above, geh.
Yes. It was the Lindens who installed a "takeover toy" in a snow sim to subjugate democratic grassroots informal whatever with dreck from above for the glory of the FIC.

Tell the doctor that she either needs to double or halve your dosage.

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh