In world web browsing

Ok, not sure here how it could be done, but just doing some brainstorming...

Wouldn't it be cool to be able to browse the web in world? Not like a window for your client, but actual browsing done inside the world, were your avie can click on the liks and surf the web as he / she / it wishes.... maybe you have an office, and when you sit down at your desk to use your computer, the screen goes into a closer zoom (like prim attack) and you actually surf the web right off your inworld computer's screen!

Now, let's look at some of the aspects of the idea...

Firs of all, that seems way to far fetched for simple LL scripting. So, extra server side capability would be needed. Basically the page fetching and html parsing.

But then, would the client have to understand html to display the pages?? Maybe not... the server could generate an image based on the parsing and push the rendered texture to your client.

Links? Maybe some client changes too, to understand hotspots on the textures (this could be usefull in many other ways.. even reducing prim useage overall) that point to the http links.

For the sake of simplicity, maybe complex info like flash media and others might be left out in the first release of such a feature.

But, what would be the recipient of such a rich-texture? A special kind of prim? Or maybe an ordinary prim with special settings? Or a mix of both...

Think of the possibilities. I can more than a little think that LL has already thought of this before. The idea is to "live" a second life. For some people, the only thing keeping them from SL is the web browsing and email itself.

Hope the idea is clear... what are your views?

It could be done with LSL scripting. It'd just have to be done without images.

EDIT:

But what would be the point? I can surf just as easily with much better performance and without leaving SL with IE. Why do we need this in SL too?

Why not just play SL in a window and then just go to your regular browser if you need something from the web? It sounds like the browsing via SL would be second rate anyway, so why add the strain to SL?

What would the point of having web browsing be? I already do what loki describes.

i'd settle for the ability to place a url into a script that, when touched, would prompt the client to spawn the local web browser to open and load the page.

llbrowseto(); or llopenurl(); or something like that

Backwards compatibility so SL can replace the WWW

I would love to see more integrated windows in SL, including:
- Mozilla / web browsing
- Hyperlinks in SL that can open these windows
- Vector graphics / flash / Shockwave
- Regular text prims so we don't need floating text, notecard givers, and/or XyText / etc
- integrated mp3 player (EQ had it!)
- integrated AIM/MSN/Yahoo/ICQ/IRC/Trillian/etc messager

...
Lets have some fun with this topic.
I follow the freeware utility cutting edge, and over this last year or so i've seen a number of promising utilities for this task.

These utilities automaticaly take screen shots rendered by your favorite browsers and save them as images. Best way to do it would be to encorporates this into the client. Only issue is that the pages it rendered wouldn't be interactive (not a bad thing).

Hmmm can't seem to find the links to them ~_~ oh well

For displaying content this is a great idea. But for interactive content this is a bad idea.

Yeah, but why reinvent the wheel? Mozilla is already open source; let's integrate that with a "window" prim that can handle anything HTTP 1.1 can handle.

good point, i just wanted to show that this had already been done... ah well. The main issue i see is with it is the number of man hours required to implement it. Lets just start with text prims and work up

It should definitely be some form of "window" prim. Just like how all of the prims are actually "sent" to the client by sending their type and specific renderring parameters a browser would could be sent to the client with a URL and a scroll percentage and it would be up to the client side to download the content from the external page and display it. Sure, this may lead to some differences in what people see, but that's a small price to pay to be able to stay "in-world" to do many, many things. Add to that the ability to have a "private" window that just the owner can see and you're getting closer to the ability to have an "in-world" office -- much like in The Book (aka Snow Crash) -- which could make our cubicle farms much more enjoyable.

Hiro, finally I found another person with the same views! Yes, the purpose is having SL "replace" the WWW and the many messenging systems around. Not in 2004, but certainly in 2014!

The first step, of course, is backwards compatibility. Croquet (http://www.opencroquet.org/) is a project (not launched yet) trying to put WWW browsers inside of the 3D viewpanel. It's a possibility, but I still think that the "easiest" way is to separate the UI in several layers (another thread pointed out that all UI elements are rendered inworld instead of on a separate OpenGL layer), and have one "web layer".

As suggested, Mozilla's open source code can be perfectly incorporated into SL without problems. Since this would be on the client side, you could have a "web object" of sorts, that you can zoom in, and after a while, you'll get the "web layer" to display the pages. Note that this doesn't add to the "strain" since it's done client-side (ie. it will add exactly the same "strain" to your system as opening the browser on a separate window).

As to having an "universal" IM "inworld", it's easy, just get the GAIM library and incorporate it in SL. Nothing could be easier! An alternative would be to put SL's IM on top of Jabber, and then add Jabber gateways server-side to connect to all other available messenging systems.

Now you ask "why should we worry about those things, we can simply use the browsers/messengers offworld much more easily...". Well, people are already using SL with VR goggles right now. If we can put messenging and WWW inworld, as well as a reasonable voice recognition system (for some commands, not necessarily for chatting), and a "keyboard layer" that you could activate to type out stuff (still much faster than voice dictation), we could have all those people with their VR gear in "full immersion", working and playing in SL at the same time

Is this so important? Again, not in 2004 perhaps, but certainly in 2014!

Actually, I think that progressively things will use "new paradigms". While discussing similar, radical stuff with some skeptical residents (and on other, non-SL forums), their views were quite pessimistic. They say that nothing can replace Google-type web searching for information retrieval; and that things like shopping malls in SL will never replace the ease that you can shop on the Web. But this is because we tend to compare things, based on our current experience. 10 years ago people would think that it would be much easier to go to a mall and search for clothes or computer parts - now they do it on the Web and think it's easier (but different). Well, I like the shopping experience, and the Web is "colder" to me - I still prefer to talk to humans and ask about their opinions. So SL can provide a better shopping experience than the Web in that respect.

As for information retrieval... well, the Web search engines were invented because things started to get chaotic in the WWW and nobody could find any relevant piece of information any more. So a new paradigm was invented - web search engines. They have several problems and faults, but they work pretty well. So, for inworld information searches... we need new paradigms. My current idea would be to have AIs in avatars parsing natural language and answering questions like: "So, where can I buy Torrid Midnight's latest pair of jeans?" with "Here, let me get you a landmark for that" or "I'll teleport you there if you wish". That's an advanced search mechanism using a different paradigm!

I've seen 3D browsers and even 3D window managers around. They didnt have "multiplayer" support, of course... or an economy, or collaborative creation.

OMG... I couldn't have said it better!!

In fact, my post was unconciously based on that very same project (opencroquet.org). Although their Metaverse (if it can be called so) is directed towards team collaboration, not life like experience. But the fact that they can do so, implies that it is in fact possible.

That exactly the line that I was going, Marker and Gwyneth,... and Croquet is proving that they can bring _any_ OS window into their connected-3D environment. I think what many of us want is the "game-life like" environment of SL with the collaboration and more serious like setting of Croquet.

It has the notion of portals. Imagine hoping a portal in SL and essentially being teleported into your own land, running on your local machine, configured like your office, but with full connected access to any resource you want. In front of you sits a large screen computer, to your left is an MP3 player that an play local MP3s or and stream you want, to your right are numerous IM sessions for any IM service you use, above you is your view outside -- which is public SL land -- and below you, oh -- we won't talk about that. Floating nearby, of course, the The Google -- a colorful pulsating prim of the type you can't quite identify, but if you ask it a question it finds anything and everything related to it with an uncanny ability to make you feel lucky.

Of course, the notion of public SL land is a bit strange. When SL extends its reach beyond LL it'll be just another form of server software and anyone who can buy or rent a server can get their own land attached to the system (not to mention their low capacity local machines that can only have a few visitors over).

But guys, 2014?!? WTF? Why not 2005?

And additionally, it would be cool if Second Life could integrate SWF (Flash, Shockwave, etc.) files into its world -- one big benefit of this would be more interactive user interfaces for replicated gizmos. For example, a big-screen TV that could stream efficient multimedia so you and friends can enjoy the show. Or a model of a desktop computer that does more than show a few pretty static images on the screen, and you can actually point-and-click your way through it. An extension like this would be most excellent.

One day I'll create a group called "SL Visionaries", with Philip, Mitch and Cory as charter members, or course, and we'll hold both inworld meetings and have our forum to discuss these things. Unfortunately, there is a general lack of interest/skepticism as to the "future" of SL, so I guess that it would be a tiny group at the moment

I haven't dared to download the 63 MB pre-alpha-broken-demo of Croquet (and I had to convince a least half a dozen of people to do the same), but from I read I think that their academic approach is rather different - "team collaboration" on a point-to-point network. Discussing why this is or not a good approach would certainly be beyond the scope of SL's forums But yes, there is nothing prevents us to see "good features" elsewhere and see if they can "fit in" SL.

Zax, your idea of an "SL office" is precisely what I have in mind, too - either "hosted" on "public land" or on a private computer somewhere else. I don't know if you had the experience of working with one of SL's inworld companies. I do work as a "marketing consultant" for one, and I can tell you that things come pretty well nearly to what you describe. Of course, since it's "just an inworld company", there is no need to "connect" to the outer world. But people do meetings, have their "office space", and rooms for doing "presentations" to shareholders and employees, as well as prospective customers.

Is it just silly pretending? Just role-playing? Well perhaps, but the company wants to make L$, so there is a technical staff, a team doing beta testing on products, someone to do customer support, an F&A director, and people for sales and marketing, and even someone on the legal staff! We work together, we establish schedules, we exchange notecards with information, we get payments and receipts for payment - and yes, the purpose is making money, in an organized way

True, it takes lots of your "free time" (in SL) and work can be as hard as in the RL. But people accept that (as the common goal is making money ), even if it's so "virtual".

I also tried to do it the other way round - meet with my colleagues in RL, using SL instead of phone/video conferencing. Despite an overall open-mindedness, they still haven't accepted the idea. Yet. But they will! After all, it's a much cheaper way than voice/video conferencing with documentation sharing. Or, if you wish - since we all use MSN/iChat internally to keep in touch with everybody, anyway - it's a much more pleasing and interesting environment for getting employees together. Much more fun than a MSN chat room! (and yes, we use those internally already)

The point is, SL can already do these things NOW.

Better than that, some emails I sent to a few companies (mostly smaller ones) have received interesting replies. Some are "willing to experiment", ie. using SL as an "additional" channel for selling wares (that they already sell via the Web). There is nothing you can't sell on the web that can't be sold in SL, with a much more entertaining experience. Even a shop showing pictures of potted plants is more interesting in SL than on the Web! Of course, clothes shops, vehicle manufacturers, furniture, or even CD shops will have a much more interesting and rewarding experience in SL, since those items will actually "work" inside SL.

In a way, Zax... yes, some things can be done in 2005 with SL. I think that it would be enormously useful if Linden Lab had a separate site to present Second Life not as entertainment, but as the future's tool for 3D virtual world societies and economies. The guys at Croquet do a much better job on presenting their project. And both Philip's and Cory's White Papers are "academical" enough to present a "serious" image, instead of advertising Second Life as "Yet Another MMOG".

Why 2014? Well, the Web has about ten years or so. After 5 years people started "believing" in it, after ten years it became commonplace. Philip believes that by 2008 (so around 5-6 years or so) there will be 1 million users in SL. That's important, since it the marketing people only start "believing" in markets with that many users. And 2014, ah well, Second Life will be as "commonplace" by then as the Web is in 2004

SL has a lot of potential. Whether or not this potential will become the next big thing is entirely up to the lindens.
I'm not a fortune teller. A year ago, no one could have foreseen that land would be bought by the simload, in USD, for resale in 512m plots.
I certainly hope that a year from now, the world will still be filled with surprising things that no one could have foreseen today. Or else it would be rather boring

Zax, Gwenyth,

You two are my new heroes. How come I haven't really talked with either of you in game?

We should get together, pull in some other interested people, and pow-wow.

I have some organization theory, Gwenyth, that I think you'll go ga-ga for.

Please count me in too!

Alternatively, a variation of the Cassandra complex: people that will have foreseen it but get shooed to the back of the line, for whatever reason, and not duly credited when their "predictions" come to pass... or worse yet, after they have "invented the future".

Hiro, you gotta meet Gwyn. She's great!

i strongly endorse this feqture mainly because it would allow us to use more refined interfaces and use XML-RPC in an efficient way, (and having database accesses too)

i would be very happy to devellop aplications in second life based on LSL PHP and SQL

I'd be happy to join a group to bat some ideas around. I will freely admit to be weak on implementing such ideas and knowing which ones are likely to be practical, but throwing ideas like this around would be good.

In fact, thanks to Gwyneth (and my own inclinations) I'm already thinking of running classes in things not related to SL in SL and ways to improve that past typing or cutting/pasting into chat windows + notecards would be great. It isn't quite the same as an In World business meeting, but SL has a lot of potential as a tool for distance learning. More if we could genuinely share documents and the like, and an in world 'live computer' or VDU or similar would be one way to do that...

Gwyneth,

You got it on the nose with the fact that many current web shops can set up shop in SL both to sell their real world products (e.g. as a promotion) or to sell SL products of their real world products (I can't quite figure if that's real world or not -- it's all RW IP and usually RW $).

It's interesting to hear that you've been contacting RW companies about using SL as either a means of distribution or promotion. This sort of thing is what will endorse SL as a valid platform.

The idea of holding meetings in SL is one of the big things I'd like to promote. That said, SL needs to get over it's game stigma. Right now, I wouldn't run the client at work for that reason. Not that people wouldn't believe me, but there would be that feeling that I was "goofing around."

However, it's this very stigma that will help SL get off the ground with the money they need to innovate. Croquet is taking a different approach to getting money; one that is higher risk in the short term if people don't "get it" soon enough. SL, given they are making money, can hang around for a while.

At some point, a new "brand" of SL might make sense. Give it a more professional, business oriented UI. Have clear lines between serious, game, kid, and adult zones so you know where it's "OK" to be during work (the game zone, right? ). This "business" client would start with everyone in suits, have the starting tutorial be about meeting organization and communication, and dump people into a zone of sims that are endless rows of big conference buildings where meetings can be reserved and security of communication is tight (a big issue for private meetings).

Presenting this sort of client to your manager or company president would be a much easier sell that showing them around the current land and having people offering "trix" when they happen to pass too close to clubs.

Hiro,

I don't actually end up in-world all that much. Maybe 2-3 times a week. My day job (cell phone programming) tends to keep me quite insanely busy. We could set up a meeting at some point. It'd have to be in the later evening, PST.


-Zax

Zax, I loved your insightful reply

Yes, SL needs to have a different "branding" or "look" somewhere online. Maybe I'll talk to Robin about that. This is something which needs time, human resources, and money. How do you target the Metaverse to the business world? Maybe the answer to that has already been found by LL, and is "present it as a game" I don't know. I only know that I have often a hard time to give companies a link to a "game" and tell them "this is the Metaverse, try it".

I also think that there could be something like a "preview environment" - a private PG sim for demo purposes, with a very limited charter defining what could be offered there. I like your idea of a "conference center", and, yes, there would need to be a way to stop the zooming feature to work, or sound "escaping" the rooms. I can't see both these things working well with the current way SL is designed. But the major disadvantages with that approach is being certainly able to demonstrating the tecnology, but the "fun" part of SL is showing the people interacting - and you had to go to the "mainstream sims" for that, since those "demo conference rooms" would probably be empty at the beginning. And, of course, be subjected to teenagers blowing you to bits with particle weapons and "escorts selling their wares"

Eloise, I'm glad you feel encouraged to do "non-SL related classes/tutorials" inworld!! i'm trying to get my roomie, Moon Adamant, to do the same (she has an artistical background). She has already done some "private tutoring" in SL, teaching how to interpret art, using uploaded pictures. She reported it as a great success!!

The people at The Learning Center (TLC) have, in the past, asked for teachers for non-SL-related courses - it was announced on events and I think on the forums, too! So probably they are still willing to have your classes announced through them, too. Yes, I seriously believe that non-SL-related courses are very, very interesting, and they should be at least as good as the SL-related ones. In some cases, even better, since they may appeal to a larger audience (only a fraction of SL residents are actually interested in building/scripting/clothes designing/SL economy...).

Now back to my RL assignments... grrrr

i dunno about integrating Flash with SL. i've used Flash alot in the past and the files are small to save bandwidth sure but they take alot of power to play back. SL already makes my computer cry without adding to it. that might be my video card more than the CPU actually, i'm not sure (not a geek) (well, not that kind anyway). it sure would be nice being able to play a Flash movie on a prim though. but it wouldn't be some magic solution to make everything wonderful. most Flash sucks just as bad as Angel's animated texture "tv".

Zuzi Martinez, procrastinating prognosticator. i predict the present.