SVG the map! :)
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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01-26-2006 04:49
The map is supposed to be easily integrated with the web, and SL is going to have a builtin firefox browser Real Soon Now, which supports SVG natively in version 1.5 SVG is an open standard, takes up less space than JPG, resizes a lot faster than downloading a bunch of new textures and can be scaled strictly on the client side. You already have geometry data, a simple projection will make it 2D, and Vector -> Vector makes more sense to me than Vector -> Raster.
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Stephane Zugzwang
Brat
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 192
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01-26-2006 05:06
Seconded. And btw, "SVG on a prim" would make SO MUCH MORE SENSE than "HTML on a prim" (shaking head in despair at how "text on a prim" ever became "integrate mozilla inside the renderer"  .
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Stephane Zugzwang -- To see a world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower Hold infinity in the palms of your hand and eternity in an hour
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Ben Bacon
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 809
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01-26-2006 05:37
From: Eggy Lippmann SVG is an open standard, takes up less space than JPG, resizes a lot faster than downloading a bunch of new textures and can be scaled strictly on the client side. You already have geometry data, a simple projection will make it 2D, and Vector -> Vector makes more sense to me than Vector -> Raster. Not too sure that this would work as expected. When you try representing something as detailed as the SL map (even at it's highest zoom level) there are too many discrete "blobs" (discrete contigous regions of a colour) for SVG to encode efficently. Once you hit a certain level of detail, SVG becomes larger than JPG quite rapidly. Also, (strict) client-side scaling only works after you have already downloaded sufficiently-rich data - which is why even those GIS web services that do use SVG still need to continue sending additional data as you zoom in or pan. The SVG file(s) for the complete map at full zoom would be massive.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-26-2006 06:38
From: Stephane Zugzwang Seconded. And btw, "SVG on a prim" would make SO MUCH MORE SENSE than "HTML on a prim" (shaking head in despair at how "text on a prim" ever became "integrate mozilla inside the renderer"  . Agreed. The idea of dragging the Mozilla source tree into SL makes me feel ill, and HTML is not only overkill but it's badly suited to fixed-sized objects: unless you use absolute layers (which make a joke of the whole HTML layout model in the first place) getting objects positioned right is a nightmare.
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Mack Echegaray
Registered Snoozer
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 145
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01-26-2006 11:09
So you'd rather they invented a custom solution .... sure start out as rich text with Linden specific tags, then people would want basic layout ... pretty quickly they find they're reinventing Gecko which is incredibly fast, scalable and flexible and once Cairo support lands will also be able to render directly to GL. I don't think anybody will be putting regular web pages on a prim except to play with, but HTML can be used for more than just web pages.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-26-2006 12:29
From: Mack Echegaray So you'd rather they invented a custom solution .... sure start out as rich text with Linden specific tags Yes to the first part, no to the second part. Before you start looking into things like rich text, go back to basics and look at what's actually been done. Give us llPaintText(string text, string font, integer size, vector color, vector coords);, with coordinates in <x, y, face>. XYText without the overhead and gluing-prims-together pain and complexity. From: someone I don't think anybody will be putting regular web pages on a prim except to play with, but HTML can be used for more than just web pages. But HTML is a really really expensive way to put a few chunks of fairly large text at fixed offsets on a prim... which is about all you can usefully do in an environment like Second Life.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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01-26-2006 13:29
From: Ben Bacon Not too sure that this would work as expected. When you try representing something as detailed as the SL map (even at it's highest zoom level) there are too many discrete "blobs" (discrete contigous regions of a colour) for SVG to encode efficently. Once you hit a certain level of detail, SVG becomes larger than JPG quite rapidly.
Also, (strict) client-side scaling only works after you have already downloaded sufficiently-rich data - which is why even those GIS web services that do use SVG still need to continue sending additional data as you zoom in or pan. The SVG file(s) for the complete map at full zoom would be massive. If it turned out to be too detailed you could simply LOD it. It's not like LL is new at gradually streaming in objects  I wasn't talking about downloading the entire map for all sims at once, I just think it could be faster and more seamless to dump the blurry JPG textures that take forever to load in favor of SVG... plus, I could then parse and transform that SVG data 
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Stephane Zugzwang
Brat
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 192
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01-27-2006 05:18
Mack, SVG wouldn't be a completely new solution. It's a concise and expressive standard that covers text and vector graphics, usually streamed compressed, that also accomodates morphing and animations. It's viewport oriented out of the box, contrary to whatever Mozilla renders (I don't dare call that HTML or anything recognizable  ). Several compact virtual machine renderers are alrady on the market and it is used in mobile phone graphic applications. It's supported by Adobe (Illustrator being the most sophisticated SVG editor out there) and even by Microsft (Visio has a very good SVG export - not sure it'll stay there once XAML arrives though  ).
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Stephane Zugzwang -- To see a world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower Hold infinity in the palms of your hand and eternity in an hour
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