No-attachments land flag

So in the last few townhalls we've been told repeatedly to take off attachments. Wouldn't it be a good idea to add a no-atttachments land flag to take care of this?
Sort of like "Warning, you have entered a no-attachments plot of land, your attachments will go back into your inventory in 15 seconds"

Cool. And when i'm wearing one of my prim-only outfits, does it warn me to get some clothes on before I get suspended due to this automatic stripping function?



Surely only scripted attachments matter? I doubt my hairpiece can cause that much issue, huh?

Is 15 seconds not enough for you to put some clothes on?

I'd rather it not let me enter the parcel.
There are some scripts I refuse to be without.

LOL! No. Not a cats chance in hell. Besides, I don't really fancy a 15 second race against the clock before I get forced nekkie.

Anyway, that was half in jest, but I still dont agree anyway. If we had to have something like this, I'd agree with Sio. I'd just rather not enter at all.

No enter would be fine, but then you get the same thing as you do with red bars "UGH WHY CANT I ENTER MY NEIGHBORS PARCEL" and such just because you have to take off attachments.

And actualy, any attachments cause a bit of lag, if not Server lag then Client FPS lag due to their being more on screen. Especialy say a hairpeice with 150 prims in it, client has to work on each one of those with 40 avatars around you etc. it all stacks up.

I'm all for a no-attachments flag, the hard problem as noted is how to enforce it.

15 seconds are enough for you to leave any parcel in the world, or to switch to any outfit. Make it 30 seconds then
Sio, you can be without your scripts just by entering no-script land, mmkay?
The problem with attachments isnt inherent to scripts. Most scripts dont cause any lag at all.
The problem with attachments is that you are an AGENT prim, and attaching means linking, therefore you have these huge physical linked sets floating around and lagging the crap out of everyone. Plus its also heavy on the rendering side.
Let's not forget that you can attach up to around 6000 prims.
Besides, this was supposed to be used for running large events like town halls, where people are asked to take off attachments.
If you dont attend events, I cant see you ever running into no-attach land unless someone set it up by mistake.

Or to be an arse.

Apart from the welcome area, I avoid no script land

If the sim is horribly laggin', you'll be lucky to move 2 meters in 30 seconds!

Attachments are phantom, not physical. Havok is not even aware of them. Client-side FPS drop should be minimal. Think about someone with 50 prims attached. I don't know about you, but when I check the debug screen I usually see seven thousand or more prims that the viewer is aware of. 50 is a drop in the bucket.

When Philip remarked about how poorly the sim was doing, I was kind of surprised. There were sixty people in it. Even if you didn't have a single script or attachment running in that whole sim, that's still 3,600 agent updates (60^2) that have to be sent out on a regular basis. That's why the performance was down. I switched to a more basic avatar when he made his request, mostly to play along. I doubt it made a lick of difference. Script-wise it was just a few timer events, and that shouldn't amount to much compared to supporting 60 agents and all their fidgety movements.

"Physical" and "phantom" arent mutually exclusive.
Attachments still have to move with the avatar, and the server does keep track of them. You can see it happen on the mini map, or at least you used to see it a few versions ago. Sometimes when I was flying my attachments lagged behind me, resulting in a trail of blue dots following me around on the mini map.
If you think attachments cause no lag, meet me one of these days for a demonstration of a certain outfit I have that is composed of half a sim's worth of prims
Just ask Kex Godel, he/she has pictures of it, and it crashed ahern a few months ago, lol

What script can you not live without? A anti-push attachment? Watch? PDA device? Now I'm curious.

<sarcam>This would be handy... strip off everyone's watches and hair attachments and jewelry when they enter the wrong area, forcing people to search through their inventory and reattach everything later. Why don't we just install metal detectors?</sarcasm>

This sounds more like fighting the symptoms rather than the problem. If the server is tracking attachments on the map, maybe it shouldn't? Seems rather pointless, and if you haven't seen the attachment lagging behavior in the last few versions maybe it's fixed. I don't understand why the sim needs any knowledge at all of attachments other than "object a is attached to avatar b's left forearm" and the scripts contained in them.

Philip said to take off attachments with scripts inside, then said the sim dropped to one quarter of the original load.

Perhaps just an option to prevent Outside Scripts running on one's land?

Ok, one already exists, but it only takes effect if you're practically underwater You see a noscripts flag, but your scripts run right down to 15m.

Azelda

Right, but these are attachments, and there is no reason for them to be processed by Havok. If Havok doesn't care, what is left? The attachments have to be sent to every avatar who enters the area, but that is a one-time thing. After that, if there is a performance drop, it is client-side, because the client is the only entity that cares about the prims. If there are scripts running on the prims, the sim will care about these, but we both know LSL is designed to throttle itself when a sim gets too busy.

As I understand it, the sim is aware of your UUID, and the UUIDs of your attachments. There is no reason for it to be aware of all the minutiae of every prim in your attachment, since Havok doesn't care, and since the viewer gets the attachments themselves from the asset server. The viewer figures out the position and rotation of each attachment based on where it is attached. If you see it on your mini-map, it is because your viewer is aware of it. The sim doesn't pre-render any of that for you. Same goes for llTargetOmega() stuff. There is a large rotating antenna in Gibson that rotates on my mini-map, but as far as the sim is concerned it's a stationary non-moving object that happens to have a client-side effect attached to it. It is no more aware of the object's "rotation" than it is of any given particle in a particle system.

I would like to see this, out of curiosity. However, that is an extreme example. I know one person who has a 200+ prim avatar, and 200 prims amount to a little over 1% of the allowance for a sim. The vast majority of people who wear attachments haven't got 200 prims worth.

Did that really happen? Are you sure that isn't because we all left it a minute later?

My av is 352 prims which is around 2.5% of a sim. It seriously doesn't cause a problem. Right now I'm sitting with Ice Brodie, wearing this av, who is running SL on a PII-450 with 256mb ram. And it's fine. I've done events with my av, and with 45 people in Lusk, I've done comparisons on sim FPS and physics FPS with my av on and without. There was no difference.

People really don't understand how SL works. "Turn off the particles, youre causing "lag"!" , "Take off the attachments, you're causing "lag"!" -- Lag, as I understand, is more of a network issue. There's bandwidth. There's server retrieval time. There's sim FPS, there's physics FPS, there's client FPS. All of these things are different.

Again, I pretty much never take off my av. I've never crashed a sim, nor has anyone ever noticed any difference when I show up.

And before anyone comes up with the smart ass remark that I just have a bunch of crap sticking off me,

No, I do not use 350 prims for 'watches and PDAs'

Anyone who disagrees, I'll show up, you can hit Alt-1, and we can do some stats checking. But it won't matter.

Oh yes, let's create a coding nightmare for people x.x

Scripts are what kill sims with complex avitars, not the avitars themselves, large events with complex avitars has worked before, there are events specifically for high-prim avitars, and they've worked, just... don't run all 200 scripts at the same time and you won't have lag problems.

I have a PIII 450, and high-prim avitars are not a problem for my system, if that's not an argument, I donno what is.

'Say Yes to Avitar Prims Everywhere'

It's a kind of all purpose thing... all of the above and more...

Heh, Michi and I said the same thing, to clarify.
Avitar prims are a differnet server than the sim, they don't count against prims in a piece of land, every avitar's allowed 255 prims per attachment point.... that's... 255*30=7650 prims total, these don't count against server lag, they don't count against land usage, they do however effect clients, over 300 prims I'm sure I'll see my client bog down, but there won't be lag aside from time to download all the unique textures. (which has some quality of service stuff to make sure you see the object first)
The server that handles prims on players is an 'asset server' IE the same server that handles our inventory, this is in-use inventory items, why they hilight and can't have much done with them.
The information is passed to the client from the asset server, the client then gets the information and displays it, most of the work's already done, lighting changes and swapping out avitars (normally takes only a couple of seconds to do) are the two spikes, the swap out of an avitar's not a big hit to lag, even on my machine, that's equivelent of 2 people switching places.

The original post here, I feel, lacked proper research into what makes the lag happen, someone just assumed the server does everything, or the client does everything, like in a game of a different archatecture... things here are different.
Particles, Textures, avitars, and prims all download bits that are needed from the server, textures and sounds are the most intense of them, but they aren't that hard to download (just compressed files) prims are only laggy with physics (server needs to process physics a lot) or in large numbers (somewhere around 8000 prims for a structure, everyone lagged there, due to the way visibility worked)

Lag and client delays are so complex in SL that no one option can really reduce lag absolutely, however working to improve code, working to reduce environment prims, and working to use proper texturing to aid in reducing prims is a must for low lag.