Is SL EVER gonna get "always-on" 1st-person view?

SL's immersiveness really takes a hit by not allowing 1st-person view (mouselook) mode to always be on (optionally, of course). Active Worlds does it right by allowing mouse movement, editing, shows the full GUI, and everything--ALL in 1st-person view. Why not SL? I've read plenty of past discussions about it and it seems about half the people would use it so why not just do it? How hard would it be to simply enable the GUI and make the mouse-controlled camera toggleable (AW uses the middle mouse button by default)? A feature vote submission has been posted for this but it only has 6 votes so far. :/

I think you answered your own question.

Every good developer knows that the vocal minority doesn't equaly represent the majority; it's a bad sampling.

Well, the proposal is still kinda new and not worded very well but if everyone just votes for IT as the 1st-person view proposal, it won't really matter. Supposedly we just need 500 votes before LL comments on it! Yet, oddly, there are quite a few proposals with far LESS than 500 votes LL has ALREADY commented on! OH THE HYPOCRACY! Eh...just vote if you want an always-on 1st-person view OPTION.

This reminds me of a feature I thought of last night that would drastically improve my SL experience. I spent all day yesterday wrestling with the camera in close quarters (and it really does feel like wrestling!), and I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if I could just hit a key and rotate the camera as if I was in mouselook mode?"

What I mean is, hit that key, and the camera doesn't move at all (unlike going into mouselook mode) and you can spin the camera around to look in another direction. That would save you about 3 alt-clicks for a full 180 degree turn.

Well, actually, just going to 1st-person view (and being able to do everything one can in 3rd-person view) is all that would be necessary and would be seamless and natural.

Hitting escape could still get back to 3rd-person view, but after alt-clicking somewhere, hitting escape could go back to av-centered 1st-person view (then hitting escape again could go to 3rd-person).

What about enablding this by adding a new paramter to llSetCameraParams?

CAMERA_FOLLOW_MOUSE - TRUE/FALSE
toggle mouselook-like mode

and perhaps
llShowUI(integer value) - TRUE/FALSE
TRUE - normal userinterface, FALSE - userinterface like in mouselook

Basically, a bit like llForceMouselook with more capabilities. So what this should do is make the camera follow the mouse around and make the avatar move in that direction, like when in mouselook. This will make it possible to make customized mouselook with the possibility of scripted camera control and support for UI menus.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but have you tried using the arrow keys together with different combinations of alt, ctrl and shift?

By all means, make things possible in 1st person, but don't eradicate 3rd person altogether. Some of us like being able to look at ourselves, and, personally, I find 3rd person much more ... free.

Do NOT remove current functionality!

that'd be nice to see all camera-accessible g/ui available in mouseview!! i've often thought about this... i'll check out that prop...

but, there are just as many occassions for cameraview... i just wish the '`' snapshop button wasn't right below 'esc' from mouseview - i really hate that!! not only for the embarrassment of the polaroid sound... but i often play fullscreen (osx client), and there's a good ten-second blackout delay 'till the 'save' dialogue comes up. just darned inconvenient! i'd like to see that at least a 'command-`' or whatever's not already taken...

(lol - i know fullscreen's not recommended - but 800x600 is not really acceptible for going out exploring or dancing. lol - usually dancing i figure i'll just keep sending the crash reports; maybe they'll find out what makes it bug out

Anyone who's fascinated by issues relating to this... please keep discussing. I'm sure there's lots to be said that hasn't been already.

This just lets you do stuff you can do with the mouse. What I mean is, sometimes I just want to point my camera in a completely different direction. Right now, if I want it to face in one direction, I need to pick something over there to "hook" onto using alt- or control-alt-click.

Yeah I see your point now, would be useful. It would be possible to make with llSetCameraParams, if CAMERA_FOLLOW_MOUSE was added as I suggested above.

I would actually like two additions, though I suppose one of them is already being implemented with the new LSL camera controls:

1. The ability to force 1st person through a script (for emersion sims)
   
2. The ability to turn in 1st person with your A and D or <- and -> keys and use your mouse as a normal pointer (this is the one being implemented, the camera could be set above your head or in front of your face to simulate 1st person while giving you normal movement and clicking).
   

I'd love the ability to remake System Shock 2, and this would be the first step in doing it. Next we'd need skinnable and configurable dialog windows.

I think a shortcut key is all ya really need.
Id love a first-person view to work with since working with objects wile in third person view is sometimes anoying when its in the way or something.

But ya, just an extra first-person mode for working on things with and a shortcut key (ctrl-v maybe) to toggle it during mouselook would do it just fine in my opion
Or maybe ctrl-M since youd be disableing mouselook.

Though without mouselook there has to be a way to look around, so either turning by moving the cursor to the sides or enabling the basic turn and move forward keys that are used with 3rd person. Plus maybe the classic Page up and Page down plus Home, End, or Numpad 5 to center the view.

The new camera controls should allow you to get a lot closer to a first person view.

ever start a project, let it set for a couple weeks, then come back to it only to find your entire starting premise has changed??

i started these notes over a week ago, and thought i'd get back to them tonight to ponder the mouseview prob... and lol, then i found mouseview's option-click. (wait, i've done this before, lol - did they -just- introduce this feature, or has it been hiding from me allll this time??lol...

anyhow, once i played with it a little, i discovered there's still several important pieces lacking in the whole 'live in mouseview (or just stay awhile)' experience. so i thought i would go ahead and finish my homework, just to see what i'd discover along the way. thanks for the semi-official thumbs-up, torley... appreciate your interest and time in this. and thanks eep for bringing it up, 'cuz it got me thinkin' about it too. (my apologies for the lack of proper formatting/tabling of info - i just don't have much more time to spend on it...)

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okay, let's boil all this down to the simple idea: let's make mouseview as convenient a work/playspace as cameraview. here's the current layout, as i can figure it out (from a mac; sorry i don't know the appropriate pc combos)...

CURRENT GUIS ACCESSIBILITIES from...
(C=cameraview; M=mouseview; !!!=gui holes
click: c: TOUCH; m: TOUCH
double-click: c: none; m: none
command-click: c: PIEMENU; m: NO piemenu !!!
option-click: c: object+spin/zoom; m: control movable objects; UNCOUPLE THE MOUSE FROM CENTER
control-click: c: control movable objs; m: control movable objects
shift-click: c: none; m: control movable objects

command-option: c: PIEMENU; m: none
command-contrl: c: PIEMENU; m: none
command-shift: c: PIEMENU; m: none

option-control: c: object+spin/plane; m: control movable objects
option-shift: c: object+spin/zoom; m: control movable objects (dupe of option only)

control-shift: c: rotate movable objects; m: rotate movable objects

(note that when i say 'none', i mean no observable effect from my experiments. please correct me if i'm wrong on any of them.)

KEY SHORTCUTS (these are one-key actions; not command-keyed)
'esc': return to cameraview (which is right above...)
'`': my dreaded 'snapshot' key
'm': go to mouseview

CAMERAVIEW:
menubar: visible and accessible
llDialog dropcards: ".
huds: double "".

(presume all the following are visible and usable)
chat: enter
im: cmd-t
friends: cmd-shift-f
find: cmd-f
map: cmd-m
inventory: cmd-i

MOUSEVIEW:
menubar: INVISIBLE, somewhat INACCESSIBLE (most, but not all items available key shortcuts). !!!
llDialog dropcards: visible and accessible.
huds: duh-duh-ditto... wowee.

chat: enter (always was usable)
im: cmd-t (not always, but now is
friends: cmd-shift-f (accessible
find: cmd-f (ditto)
map: cmd-m... AIII... nope, on the mac, that minimizes the client window to the dock. however, there is a solution, so read on !!!
inventory: cmd-i (usable... but the lack of an equivalent to dragging a whole folder of an outfit onto your avi really kinda bites. !!!

THE GOOD: well, what can i say?? it's sweet to free the mouse in mouseview - after all, the darned thing's named after it!!

THE BAD PART I: still no piemenu access. MAJOR lack of functionality at that. maybe this is too simple to be true, but it just seems that mouseview needs a command-click mapped to it (also with the built-in mouse-release behavior - required functionality to then navigate the piemenu.).

THE BAD PART II: still no menubar. (maybe they could rewrite the client menu as a hud, lol, not serious... but interesting; though it'd most likely be a completely inefficient redesign for the client, that'd be kinda good if the lindens had to keep up an efficient and error-free hud handling system... we'd all benefit!!

THE SLIGHTLY HEADACHE-INDUCING: the first one is actually more than headache inducing... the rest seem easily solvable.

OH PLEASE FIX THIS!! : the lack of an equivalent inventory control-click menu item of dragging a whole outfit onto the avi. in the inventory window, an extra entry upon control-clicking folders to 'wear' all clothing items and attachments contained within (instead of currently only supporting control-clicking on one attachment or piece of clothing at a time.)

the uncoupling of mouse from avi only remains while over gui-space (unless one keeps the option key held down). the slightest glance into the background sl environment instantly recouples the mouse to avi. i'd like this behavior to -toggle- upon option-click, or at least provide a preference for it once users get familiar with the behavior of it.

returning to my silly little snapshot prob... seems to me that making 'm' toggle the view is the simplest thing to do, as opposed to having two separate keys to perform that task. (but really, that snapshot key should be command-keyed, for heaven's sake...

oh, and to solve the command-m problem in os x: open your system preferences; pick 'keyboard and mouse', then 'keyboard shortcuts'. click the '+' button, and add 'second life' as an application (you may need to help it find the app in its containing folder). for menu title, enter "Minimize Window" (w/o quotes), and in keyboard shortcut, i pressed "command-option-control m" - seemed suitably obscure. and, ohhhhhhh, eeeyyyes... you will have map access in mouseview. (oh but be sure to relaunch sl for the change to take.)

another handy one to set: "Hide Second Life". interferes with command-H for chat history...

Right now, there's already some functionality for live-in/always on first person view. I think the desire for a more permanant first person view would require only one change.

Right now, if you're in first person view, you can hold ALT to show cursor. All that is necesarry is to change it so that when you hold ALT, the GUI is shown, instead of being hidden as the current functionality stands.

While that would certainly provide the functionality for the most part, I think the ideal solution would be to choose a key (Perhaps TAB? How many people really use the over-the-shoulder view anyway? Not to mention it's used this way in other games,) that would cycle between 3 mouse look modes.

Mode 1: Current mouse look, no GUI, camera is bound to mouse. In other words, no change.
Mode 2: First person view, with GUI shown in full, but the mouse is still bound to the camera.
Mode 3: Same as Mode 2, but release the camera from the mouse. This would allow manipulation of the GUI while still in first person view.

This would have absolutly no impact on current third person view behavior and control.

To give the tab key a function outside of First person view however, perhaps implement a feature that, while holding tab, allows you to rotate the camera in place. IE, when in third person (Or camera focused on an object for example.) Holding tab simply binds the mouse to the camera and the camera rotates exactly like it would in first person view mode.

While this would eliminate (Or displace) over-the-shoulder view, I think this functionality is what would satisfy most if not all of us.

'm' -already- toggles mouse/cameraview. you don't have to press 'esc'... sigh. hopefully i won't suffer from snapshot blackouts anymore. (but, which makes me wonder why 'esc' hasn't been removed?)

Escape is a general-purpose way to get out of states/modes that has been in use for as long as I can recall. It just makes sense to keep it implemented.