Second Life Forums Archive - Inventory "Restore points" or "Snapshots"

Michi Lumin

Sharp and Pointy

Join date: 14 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,793

10-15-2004 16:50

Okay. In hearing Philip's concerns from the townhall, and the rest of the community's concerns in regard to permissions, I can understand why object import/export has been back-burnered for now.

However, there still seems to be a lot of concern over catastrophic loss.

What I propose is the ability to set 'restore points', or make 'inventory snapshots', stored client side, to facilitate backup.

I believe, from what I know, the local inventory cache, upon login, does a compare to the server side inventory, and then syncs from there. (Server being the master of the hierarchy of course.)

What if we could have an option to 1) store that cache, based on a snapshot date, and, 2) have the option to replace our server side inventory data structure with that snapshot structure, or, (though this may be later). 3) merge that offline inventory snapshot with the existing one?

The offline file could be encrypted and proprietary, much as it is now. That shields from much 'tinkering' and eliminates DRM/permission concerns.

As far as an old inventory not working when restored to a new version? Well, as the data structures (in the encrypted wrapper) would likely be similar to server side, the same conversions that HAVE to occur (which keep us from losing inventory every time there's a new version of SL) could also occur client side.

Basically, you finish working on some huge build, right before you go to bed, make a restore point. New version of SL in the morning or some asset server crash two days later? No problem, just restore to two days ago.

No worry about individual objects, rights, export methods, etc. The inventory could be, as it is now, tied to your account and your installation.

Can anyone see why this would be potentially any worse than someone hacking what we already have?

LL developer input on the possibility or feasibility of this?

Moleculor Satyr

Fireflies!

Join date: 5 Jan 2004

Posts: 2,650

10-15-2004 17:12

From: Michi Lumin

I can understand why object import/export has been back-burnered for now.

What I propose is the ability to set 'restore points', or make 'inventory snapshots', stored client side, to facilitate backup.

*squint*

Uhrm.

You do realize you just said "I understand why import/export has been put on hold, but why not give us import/export abilities," right?

_____________________

</sarcasm>

Michi Lumin

Sharp and Pointy

Join date: 14 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,793

10-15-2004 17:15

No. It's absolutely a different thing Moleculor. The reasons E/I have been on hold is because of individual permissions - or at least, that's a big part of it.

I'm not talking about exporting individual objects where they'd be editable, tweakable, or messable with DRM. (ex, 'save object LAMP to my hard drive')

I'm talking about an entire inventory structure, encrypted and CRCed, that would not be manipulatable by the end user. In the event of a catastrophic loss, it could be restored.

This is not individual object import and export. This is an entire inventory restore point.

They aren't the same thing. Not at all.

Kex Godel

Master Slacker

Join date: 14 Nov 2003

Posts: 869

10-15-2004 17:21

From: Moleculor Satyr

You do realize you just said "I understand why import/export has been put on hold, but why not give us import/export abilities," right?

No, the the complicated import/export system is being backburnered, so Michi is proposing a simpler system to tide us over.

It's like saying "the plans to construct the suspension bridge has been put on hold, but why not implement a fleet of ferrys for now?"

Nekokami Dragonfly

猫神

Join date: 29 Aug 2004

Posts: 638

10-17-2004 17:57

Would "inventory" as used here include objects owned by us on land? Or would I have to deliberately take copies of everything in progress before making the snapshot? I'd prefer the former.

Neko

Ama Omega

Lost Wanderer

Join date: 11 Dec 2002

Posts: 1,770

10-17-2004 18:47

<devilsadvocate>I go and buy super_l33t_cool_thing (SLCT) for lots of L$$. It's permissions are (no mod)(no copy)(yes transfer).

I set a restore point to right after I bought it. I now give that (SLCT) to alt_1.

Oh no! I just had catastrophic failure (or not)!!1! I need to restore!!1! So I load my restore.

Now I have alt_1 give me back the (SLCT) and viola! 2 (SLCT)s for the price of 1!

But thats not all...rinse, lather, repeat (set restore, give (SLCT)s to alt_1, load restore, get (SLCT)s back from alt_1) and now I have 4 of them!
8!
16!
..... all of which I can sell for uber profit!!
If you think this is 'a lot of work just to copy an item' .... if the items are worth enough then it is well worth the time after only a few iterations.</devilsadvocate>

_____________________

--
010000010110110101100001001000000100111101101101011001010110011101100001
--

Carnildo Greenacre

Flight Engineer

Join date: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 1,044

10-17-2004 23:33

If done properly, the game will notice that there are two copies of the object with the same key, and will prevent the save-point copy from being loaded -- and possibly raise a warning flag with the Lindens.

_____________________

perl -le '$_ = 1; (1 x $_) !~ /^(11+)\1+$/ && print while $_++;'

Strife Onizuka

Moonchild

Join date: 3 Mar 2004

Posts: 5,887

10-17-2004 23:45

ugly issue, no clear solution, runaway.

*runs away screaming*

_____________________

Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey

Eggy Lippmann

Wiktator

Join date: 1 May 2003

Posts: 7,939

10-18-2004 00:05

I would settle for the ability to backup that which I have permissions on. I dont often buy anything, so...

_____________________

Help us document Second Life history at http://slhistory.org!

Strife Onizuka

Moonchild

Join date: 3 Mar 2004

Posts: 5,887

10-18-2004 00:27

thats a good solution. hadn't thought of doing a partial backup.

_____________________

Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey

Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

Inventory "Restore points" or "Snapshots" - a new way to look at possible backup?

Inventory "Restore points" or "Snapshots" - a new way to look at possible backup?
Michi Lumin Sharp and Pointy Join date: 14 Oct 2003 Posts: 1,793	10-15-2004 16:50 Okay. In hearing Philip's concerns from the townhall, and the rest of the community's concerns in regard to permissions, I can understand why object import/export has been back-burnered for now. However, there still seems to be a lot of concern over catastrophic loss. What I propose is the ability to set 'restore points', or make 'inventory snapshots', stored client side, to facilitate backup. I believe, from what I know, the local inventory cache, upon login, does a compare to the server side inventory, and then syncs from there. (Server being the master of the hierarchy of course.) What if we could have an option to 1) store that cache, based on a snapshot date, and, 2) have the option to replace our server side inventory data structure with that snapshot structure, or, (though this may be later). 3) merge that offline inventory snapshot with the existing one? The offline file could be encrypted and proprietary, much as it is now. That shields from much 'tinkering' and eliminates DRM/permission concerns. As far as an old inventory not working when restored to a new version? Well, as the data structures (in the encrypted wrapper) would likely be similar to server side, the same conversions that HAVE to occur (which keep us from losing inventory every time there's a new version of SL) could also occur client side. Basically, you finish working on some huge build, right before you go to bed, make a restore point. New version of SL in the morning or some asset server crash two days later? No problem, just restore to two days ago. No worry about individual objects, rights, export methods, etc. The inventory could be, as it is now, tied to your account and your installation. Can anyone see why this would be potentially any worse than someone hacking what we already have? LL developer input on the possibility or feasibility of this?
Moleculor Satyr Fireflies! Join date: 5 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,650	10-15-2004 17:12 From: Michi Lumin I can understand why object import/export has been back-burnered for now. What I propose is the ability to set 'restore points', or make 'inventory snapshots', stored client side, to facilitate backup. squint Uhrm. You do realize you just said "I understand why import/export has been put on hold, but why not give us import/export abilities," right? _____________________ </sarcasm>
Michi Lumin Sharp and Pointy Join date: 14 Oct 2003 Posts: 1,793	10-15-2004 17:15 No. It's absolutely a different thing Moleculor. The reasons E/I have been on hold is because of individual permissions - or at least, that's a big part of it. I'm not talking about exporting individual objects where they'd be editable, tweakable, or messable with DRM. (ex, 'save object LAMP to my hard drive') I'm talking about an entire inventory structure, encrypted and CRCed, that would not be manipulatable by the end user. In the event of a catastrophic loss, it could be restored. This is not individual object import and export. This is an entire inventory restore point. They aren't the same thing. Not at all.
Kex Godel Master Slacker Join date: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 869	10-15-2004 17:21 From: Moleculor Satyr You do realize you just said "I understand why import/export has been put on hold, but why not give us import/export abilities," right? No, the the complicated import/export system is being backburnered, so Michi is proposing a simpler system to tide us over. It's like saying "the plans to construct the suspension bridge has been put on hold, but why not implement a fleet of ferrys for now?"
Nekokami Dragonfly 猫神 Join date: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 638	10-17-2004 17:57 Would "inventory" as used here include objects owned by us on land? Or would I have to deliberately take copies of everything in progress before making the snapshot? I'd prefer the former. Neko
Ama Omega Lost Wanderer Join date: 11 Dec 2002 Posts: 1,770	10-17-2004 18:47 <devilsadvocate>I go and buy super_l33t_cool_thing (SLCT) for lots of L$$. It's permissions are (no mod)(no copy)(yes transfer). I set a restore point to right after I bought it. I now give that (SLCT) to alt_1. Oh no! I just had catastrophic failure (or not)!!1! I need to restore!!1! So I load my restore. Now I have alt_1 give me back the (SLCT) and viola! 2 (SLCT)s for the price of 1! But thats not all...rinse, lather, repeat (set restore, give (SLCT)s to alt_1, load restore, get (SLCT)s back from alt_1) and now I have 4 of them! 8! 16! ..... all of which I can sell for uber profit!! If you think this is 'a lot of work just to copy an item' .... if the items are worth enough then it is well worth the time after only a few iterations.</devilsadvocate> _____________________ -- 010000010110110101100001001000000100111101101101011001010110011101100001 --
Carnildo Greenacre Flight Engineer Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 1,044	10-17-2004 23:33 If done properly, the game will notice that there are two copies of the object with the same key, and will prevent the save-point copy from being loaded -- and possibly raise a warning flag with the Lindens. _____________________ perl -le '$_ = 1; (1 x $_) !~ /^(11+)\1+$/ && print while $_++;'
Strife Onizuka Moonchild Join date: 3 Mar 2004 Posts: 5,887	10-17-2004 23:45 ugly issue, no clear solution, runaway. runs away screaming _____________________ Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
Eggy Lippmann Wiktator Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 7,939	10-18-2004 00:05 I would settle for the ability to backup that which I have permissions on. I dont often buy anything, so... _____________________ Help us document Second Life history at http://slhistory.org!
Strife Onizuka Moonchild Join date: 3 Mar 2004 Posts: 5,887	10-18-2004 00:27 thats a good solution. hadn't thought of doing a partial backup. _____________________ Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey