|
Hamstershire Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 15
|
11-22-2004 13:09
Hulo.
Recently, was thinking about such large builds as Neverland/Olde London and Darklife, and a thought occured to me that, while may be priority-wise years down the road, I figured I might bring it up here to see what others made of it.
I am constantly amazed at our ability to create inside this game (granted that may be because I'm new and haven't hit any brick walls that don't reside up inside me head). But one thing I noticed a bit lacking in such 'environment' builds like these, is Non-Player Characters.
Even when you have User AV's playing such roles as Peter Pan and Hook (which, I think, is the only way to go with these important, major characters) people can't be online 24 hours a day. You may not have enough players to fill all roles, either.
What I would suggest is the combination of two existing technologies (always easier to suggest than create): AV's (the graphical part) and scripts.
With an 'empty' AV, drag and dropped animations and attachments, and even only variations on existing scripting functions, we could gain NUAVs that could walk, fight, converse, give items (as vendors even). We could further our stories even more.
What does everyone think?
|
|
Zuzi Martinez
goth dachshund
Join date: 4 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,860
|
11-22-2004 15:32
i dunno. i kinda like knowing that everyone i'm going to meet in sl is a real person. it wouldn't be any fun to interact with a walking mannequin or whatever. From: someone people can't be online 24 hours a day that's fine. Peter Pan's got to sleep sometime. 
|
|
Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
|
11-22-2004 15:48
From: Zuzi Martinez Peter Pan's got to sleep sometime.  If he doesn't, he'll never grow up. Oh, wait....
_____________________
~ Tiger Crossing ~ (Nonsanity)
|
|
Moleculor Satyr
Fireflies!
Join date: 5 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,650
|
11-22-2004 18:24
Oi, we've been down this particular road before. Lets see if I can bring up my posts and just quote them here, as they're rather long winded, and it's difficult to remember EVERYTHING I'm supposed to say in order to preclude arguments from others... From: Moleculor Satyr Everything in a 3D environment is made up of two dimensional surfaces. It's partly why looking at something from the inside of a non-hollow prim doesn't show the prim itself. The best way to illustrate this is by pretending everything in every 3D environment is made up of triangles.
A cube would be made of twelve triangles, two for each side.
With a sufficient number of triangles, you can create a reasonable approximation of any shape in existence. With enough triangles, you can make something that the human eye can't distinguish between, and the real thing.
If you take those triangles, and start connecting them at their points at different angles, keeping the triangle itself flat, but curving multiple triangles over an imagined surface, you can create the illusion of a three dimensional surface. Much like creating the side of a cube with just two triangles. The more complex the surface, the more triangles are required.
Now, modern day graphics cards have evolved beyond that. They have more than just mere triangles that they can render. They can cheat, and do outright squares, making a cube only six polygons instead of twelve. That's half (or close to it) the number or required operations to draw that polygon on your screen. More code includes things such as vertices and such.
But the plain and simple fact is, the more 'detail' in a 3d object, the more time it takes for your card to render it. This is represented as a number known as FPS, or frames per second.
The absolute best way to give you a concrete example of how this works is for you to go to a sim at the edge of the grid, or better yet an island sim, fly to the extreme edge, so you're staring out into the simless ocean, and then log out.
Then log back in and keep staring. Logging out and back in guarantees me that SL will stop rendering everything you just flew through that's now behind you. So keep staring out into the ocean. No prims in front of you. No avatars. Just some ocean, and maybe some clouds.
Make sure your debug menu is on. If it isn't, hit Ctrl+Alt+D.
Turn off your minimap if it isn't. It's something like Ctrl+Shift+M.
Then hit Alt+1. This will bring up a bit of data on the right side of your screen. The three main categories should be something like Basic, Advanced, and Simulator. If Basic isn't open, click the word Basic (the bar won't do, the word is the only thing that will open it). I'd also recommend you close the Advanced and Simulator readouts, just to make sure you don't read the wrong value.
See the large graph with a green line moving inside a red area? That's your graphics card's FPS. Be SURE you're not reading the SimFPS, which is the speed your simulator is running at. If you are, you need to close the Simulator heading and open the Basic one.
Look at the number next to the word FPS. See it? It should be something higher than 10. Probably something more like 20 or 30ish. That's how many frames of graphics per second your graphics card is rendering. The only polygons it's really having to render is your one avatar, and maybe some water, and maybe a bit of the land and prims around you. Nothing much else.
Now, play an animation. See how smoothly the animation runs? I can almost guarantee you will be shocked at how smooth it runs if you've never stared into the ocean before. Especially right after logging in.
Now find a party. The bigger, the better. I'd recommend Club Elite, but since that place closed down (yay!), just any old party with a large number of avatars will do.
Go to it. Be sure to fly around the area a bit. Then land, and look and make sure you can see -everyone- who's at the party. Be SURE you can see them! Now look at what your FPS is. Low, isn't it? Probably something like 10, or 5, or maybe even lower. And how many people are there? How choppy their animations are? Log out. Log back in. Look again. It's still low, isn't it?
If all those avatars were PERFECTLY STILL, your FPS would still be as low as it is now. Even if they were... say... mannequins (check your spelling, Shadow), your FPS would STILL be just as low. Because your graphics card is having to render dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of polygons for each individual avatar. And if 30 or so avatars manage to slow down your graphics -this- much, just think how much 200 in a large mall would. Hell, it might even bring people's systems to a screeching halt. Might overheat their graphics cards and burn them to a crisp if they aren't cooling them properly. BTW, in case you're wondering, lack of scripts or physics would not in any way improve your framerate. And no, the graphics engine of SL does not do any optimizations that would lessen this effect. It does not cull polygons or do anything beyond Level Of Detail, as far as I can tell, so putting a giant cube between you and everyone at whatever party you're looking at so you CAN'T see them wouldn't actually reduce your framerate any, as long as they're still in your field of vision. (Hell, even turning 180 degrees might not, from what I understand of how the renderer works.) Since one avatar is made up of nearly 10,000 polygons (or so one non-Linden user estimated), 30 of them (and you KNOW people'll use 30+ in stores or builds like Neverland, which I still haven't seen yet because my account is disabled... bah... and I never got the group invite for the preivew.  ) would be equivilent to 15,000 cubes which is an entire simulator's worth of primitives, all being rendered at once. Add into that the custom textures for every single last fake avatar, and you have very bad framerates, pretty much exactly like the ones you see at parties. It's a nice idea, and MIGHT (I stress the "might" part) be possible if/when Linden redesigns the entire renderer, but that's a major project (that they might already be working on) but is FAR (FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR) from guaranteed. And that doesn't even touch the whole "Am I talking to a real person?" thing.
_____________________
</sarcasm>
|
|
Hamstershire Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 15
|
11-23-2004 10:39
From: Zuzi Martinez i dunno. i kinda like knowing that everyone i'm going to meet in sl is a real person. it wouldn't be any fun to interact with a walking mannequin or whatever. Thanks, Zuzi and fair enough, I see your point. But, remember this isn't 'anyone' that your 'meeting'. It's a prop. A prop that would have human/humanoid form. I've met many plywood boxes in SL, some have been fun, others not so much. The only point of it being human / humanoid shape is that the 'box' is less jarring to 'immersion' (yeah, I said that evil word), and fits the atmosphere better. I'm not trying to replace people. From: Zuzi Martinez that's fine. Peter Pan's got to sleep sometime.  Well, I never wanter Pan or any of the other major players to be NPC's. I simply thought there might be a use for animatable NPC's that could fill in the less glamorous /attacking-zombie-midgets /farmer-who-needs-player-to-kill-the-rats-attacking-his-crops kinda thing. As far as Pan sleeping....Hmmm...are you sure?  _____________________________________ From: Moleculor Satyr Oi, we've been down this particular road before. Thanks for replying, Moleculor! Yeah, I did my initial advanced search on 'NPC' and 'NPCs' in this forum and couldn't find anything. I later found a 4 page thread here when trying 'Non Player Characters'. From: Moleculor Satyr Since one avatar is made up of nearly 10,000 polygons (or so one non-Linden user estimated), 30 of them (and you KNOW people'll use 30+ in stores or builds like Neverland, which I still haven't seen yet because my account is disabled... bah... and I never got the group invite for the preivew.  ) would be equivilent to 15,000 cubes which is an entire simulator's worth of primitives, all being rendered at once. Add into that the custom textures for every single last fake avatar, and you have very bad framerates, pretty much exactly like the ones you see at parties. Yeesh...ok. Put like that, I could understand why that would be a nightmare. From: Moleculor Satyr It's a nice idea, and MIGHT (I stress the "might" part) be possible if/when Linden redesigns the entire renderer, but that's a major project (that they might already be working on) but is FAR (FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR) from guaranteed. Yeah, from the thread I mentioned above, someone mentioned the Lindens working on this. Well, hopefully, someday. Maybe, tho...it wouldn't have to have the level of polygon detail a AV has. I would be ecstatic if you could just somehow tie a linked primset to avatar animations. IOW, add a 'skeleton' to a set of prims and place an animation (such as walk) inside the prim set. The animation would drive the 'skeleton' and the primsets that were tied to it would seem to walk. But I won't hold my breath. From: Moleculor Satyr And that doesn't even touch the whole "Am I talking to a real person?" thing. Now, at the risk of reviving this again....I don't understand this fear. This was the major tangent of the above mentioned thread. I think we're a long way off from being able to replicate realistic conversation. I'm not sure anyone would be fooled (even a newbie for their first .35 seconds.) It's one thing I like about this 'game', there's incredible potential to create items/props that CAN grief others, but instead of removing that power from the hands of players for fear of that griefing, as many other MMOEs do, we retain these abilities. Why should this be any different?
|