avs per meter

credit for this idea goes to kasandra morgan:

"Yeah, but TSO only allows 18 people on a lot, if you live there and its full you have to ask your roommate to kick someone out. Hey, maybe they should do with people what they did with prim and are gonna do with scripts. You can only have a certain amount of people on your land as is allowed in the sim at once in relation to the amount of the sim you own. Like a 512 could have up to three visitors and a 28,000 could have like 30. Sure only people with private islands would ever make the dwell top 25 but it looks like that now anyway."

ll will do well to implement this asap.

I dunno, I have a couple questions about how that would work. The first problem, as I see it, is that if a sim can hold 30 avatars by default, I'd need to have at least 144sq.m to even be on my own property. As you say, a 512m lot wouldn't even hold 4 people.

Besides that, what happens when I log on at 4am and nobody's in the sim? How is it fair that I can only hang out with a couple friends, when nobody else is using the sim? If nobody else is there, shouldn't I be able to have an event?

Isn't this basically saying that people aren't allowed to host events on their own land --or in many cases, even bother building something that might be remotely popular-- unless they pay a lot of money first?

While we're on the topic of events, suppose I DO decide to host an event on my two-parcel lot. Nobody else can enter the parcel, so they're all on my neighbours' lots. Sure, they're getting some dwell, but they're also getting their av limit used up. What's the solution there, for neighbours who don't care for this to be stuck outside the sim or their parcel? Should they have to resort to banning the event-goers from their land? At what point does doing so become a violation of ToS, under the "thou shalt not ban people from their land" clause?

More to the point, wouldn't this ENCOURAGE me to use my neighbours' av allocation? It'd certainly be a lot cheaper than using my own!

Everything Catherine said and then some!

Sorry Khamon, but limiting avs in this manner is really a bad idea. It would create all sorts of problems, and I can't think of a single benefit it would create.

Take for example our Mourning After mall in Indigo. It's consistently been listed in the most popular places since its opening, even though the parcel it is on is not large. Although it only takes up 6% of the total sim, it pretty much always has more people in it than the rest of the sim combined. For the grand opening, we had 45 people there for over 2 hours. There's a heck of a lot of business being done there, but under your method, all that would come to a hault, as only 3 people would ever be able to go in at a time. All the others would need to wait in line until someone leaves.

For that matter, since all the plots on Indigo are the same size, 3 people could be in the store while 3 more would end up waiting in each of the adjacent plots, 3 in the plots next to those, and so on, and so on. So the population of the entire sim would have to play leapfrog from parcel to parcel for hours waiting for a chance to enter the store, and the people in the store would have to telport off the sim in order to leave, as they'd be unable to walk or fly out under their own power if the adjoining plots were full.

While we're on that topic, how the heck would anyone ever get anywhere? If all it takes is a couple of people to fill a parcel, the landscape would become a giant maze where no one could ever travel in a straight line. As soon as a few people are in your path, you're stuck.

Unless I'm mising something here, this idea makes absolutely no sense. Please explain if I've missed the point.

actually, y'all have proven the point very well. we can't put enough avs in a sim to make land worth the money we're spending on tier fees. i can own 48ksm in a sim, but if someone has a popular attraction built on a 512sm lot in the same sim, i'm bolted to the floor. i can't work or entertain during the 24/7 parties. i can only sell my land and move.

months ago i suggested 1/4 sized sims to help solve the problem. ll had a better idea and started releasing private sims. i suppose they are worth the money if you've got it.

This would discourage people from hanging out, which is exactly the opposite of what LL is interested in. The damage this could do to events alone is staggering.

This would be terrible! It destroys the majority of events right off the bat, and limiting a person to having no more than 3 guests??? What??? That's a sure-fire way to turn a lot of would be new users away as soon as they find out that their 512 plot can only support 4 people at a time.

Only people who had big time money to buy large plots of land would have any chance to have a working store or mall, most clubs would vanish, meeting areas would dissapear, as well as many popular places that draw 'crowds'.

so one popular place continually lagging a sim to uselessness is not a problem that needs to be dealt with in any way. i got it. sorry i brought it up.

nix this and any other suggestion designed to force consideration on the population. they're not interested.

It's not that it doesn't need addressing, it's that addressing it this way would probably harm the social aspect that LL believes is the backbone of SL. I agree that living in the same sim as a popular club would be an absolute drag.

I think the solution for this particular problem, in the long term, is "more technology."

Maybe they could set it up so that no one parcel could have more than a certain (high) percentage of the sim's avatars, on a sliding scale. Anything under 8192 and you couldn't have more than 75%, then 8192-32768 would be more like 80%, etc. I think that even something that permissive would still be considered too restrictive by LL.

It is a problem, but if someone is entertaining 30+ people on a lot of any size, LL is getting their money's worth.

The population is expanding rapidly and so it becomes easier and easier for a popular parcel to have a lot of people on it for a very long period of time, this problem is going to become more and more prevalent.. but, popular places keep the game alive, it keeps people playing.

I agree with Huns that what we need here is more technology, specifically I think we need greater server muscle and optimizations such that they can handle greater and greater numbers as the strain increases.

The SL client can survive rendering a massive number of people at once, I've been to many parties where people had to be teleported in and the simulator was more likely to crash than the individual clients from what I observed.

I do empathize with you Khamon, I live in Hawthorne and many residents suspect that its sheer proximity to Federal causes it to be lagged ridiculously on a constant basis. You could be the only person in Hawthorne and you still wouldn't see a sim FPS greater than 200. A lot of simulators have that problem and a lot of simulators are being constantly population-locked, but a population limit based on % of the simulator owned will only punish the 'little guys' more.

I just don't agree with a population limit at all, I think it's too limiting. If you can get people on your lot you're doing a service to the community by providing entertainment, we just can't punish that or we'll strangle the life out of SL.

You were doing fine in the discussion until you made this last post. You made a suggestion, people disagreed, and you appeared to have acknowledged and accepted the disagreement admirably until you made this statement.

As others have stated, the lag problem does need addressing (not that you ever even mentioned this in the beginning). However, your proposed solution would cause extreme damage to the structure, culture, and freedoms available in SL. It simply wouldn't work. You appeared to have understood this in your answer to my first response in this thread, when you said, "actually, y'all have proven the point very well".

Now you seem to be just having a temper tantrum, getting sarcastic after the number of people who disagree with your suggestion has exceeded your tolerance level. That's not a terribly effective way to discuss the merrits of your point of view. I hope you can return to your previous demeanor so this conversation can continue intelligently. Otherwise the impression you are giving is of one who pouts and cries sour grapes when he doesn't get his way.

This may not have been your intended message, but look at the history here for a second: "My sim is too slow cuz there are too many people visiting my neighbor. How dare they do that to me? Let's change the rules so my neighbor can't do that to me anymore. A lot more people are arguing against my idea than I had hoped. How dare they do that to me? I'll just start getting sarcastic, accuse them of being inconsiderate and feign disinterest in the topic os they can't do that to me anymore. Me, me, me!"

Again, I realize this may not have been the impression you were intending to give, but I'm sure if you take a step back for a moment you can see how it could be construed this way. Please understand I am not trying to insult you here, simply to point out that if you want to discuss something you should be prepared to just that, discuss it.

That means entertaining all points of view. If someone thinks your idea is "terrible", as one poster did, so be it.

If you believe in your idea completely, that kind of thing shouldn't shake you. If you are an open minded, thoughtful person, it should simply be chalked up to an understanding that every idea will always attract those who agree and those who disagree with varying degrees of fervor. If the vast majority of enthusiasm is invested on the side of disagreement, then a rational person realizes that perhaps his idea was maybe not quite as good as he had thought, or else maybe he didn't present it as effectively as he should have.

What he does not do is start calling people names and storm off. That serves no purpose whatsoever.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, as Huns said, the only viable solution to the lag problem is to improve SL's technology. Enforcing limitations on people's freedoms would only serve to disuade people from playing. That benefits no one. You can have the fastest sim in the world, but if you have no one to share it with, how have you gained?


Edit: P.S. I am particularly disturbed by your notion that consideration is a thing that can be "forced on the population". The implications of that statement are staggaring. Not only does it demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the definition of the word, but it borders on fascist dictatorialism.

One cannot be forced to be considerate. By definition it simply can't happen. Consideration comes from within. Some people have it and some don't, just as some people have artisitc talent or athletic ability or intelligence while others do not. One can no more be forced to be considerate than can he or she be forced to be happy or be forced to fall in love.

Besides, it pretty much goes without saying that even contemplating an attempt to force someone to be considerate is a pretty inconsiderate thing to do.

Well There seems to be a problem here, everone has noticed it, we have all been affected by it.
Obveously the first suggestion in this thread didnt go over well. and I can see why, We mite as well just start having everyone put up access lists on there parcle rite now, cause thats where that would end up/ a SL full of green lines.

But I agree that the sims Just dont cut it by even the slightest bit. as far as im conserned all of the power of the SL world atm combined. should be the ammount for just one sim. I have a lot where I and a friend created an amusement park. with a ride that goes pretty far up in the air and drops, and a ferris wheel, also some games, like pop the baloons, skiball and bowling. "well its still in the works" But think about this.

Where is the limut? Lets say you have 11 Physical objects.

a set of bowling pins and a ball. Now your going to want to have more than one lane. so how many? what can the server handel? Hek ide want 10 at least, cause it would be my hopes that my bowling ally would be the most popular in SL.
But for some reason, the server cant handle 110 physical objects at once verry well.
A lot you ask? NO! what if My neighbor wanted a bowling ally ov his/her own? hek what if 10 ppl in that sim wanted bowling allys?

or for a "better" sake of argument. what If I want a 10 lane bowling ally, mary wants a race track, john, wants a basketball court, bob wants a skydiving busness, and tom is making amazing rides, such as a ferris wheel.

all things that you are SUPPOSED to be able to do in SL.

But I dare you to try to put all those things on a fairly larg scale into ONE sim. and then ad in the avatars.......
forget it, ittl never happen, unless LL makes there servers a little more "beafy".

Why should we be restricted to a Servers limitations?

try to make a torus, and then another and another.....
and position them so they appear to make a chain.
Now enable physics, and tada, instant screwups and lag.


Are we supposed to just fly around and look at pretty lifeless prims with textures?
Are we not supposed to creat a crowd of ppl?
Is SL supposed to just stay the same size and never grow?

===Forget making New sims, or changing rues to help support bs limitations, FIX the sims that we have.===