Bring Back $10/prim rez, Instate LICENSE to use scripted|physical objects

<rant>
Blue runs like crap, but usually it's liveable "crap" (150-300simFPS).

Lately it's been running like absolute sheeIoola. For the last 5.333 hours it's been running at 76 average simFPS.

Scrubbie says Blue sucks (~9600 polls since 00:00:01am today):

Scrubbie3 whispers: FPS range percents...
Scrubbie3 whispers: 1-50: 0.75%, 51-100: 80.86%, 101-150: 18.37%, 151-200: 0.00%, 201-250: 0.00%, 251-300: 0.00%, 301+: 0.00%
Scrubbie3 whispers: Dil percents (Stablity)...
Scrubbie3 whispers: 0.96-1.0: 93.99%, 0.90-0.95: 5.48%, 0.60-0.89: 0.40%, 0.40-0.59: 0.08%, 0.0-0.39: 0.03%


A HIGH of 143simFPS, a low of 6. :p 80% of the last 5.333 hours have been at low-lag producing levels (51-100). Freaking A N N O Y I N G.

I propose returning the old $10/prim rez cost. No refunds if others delete/return your objects. well maybe for Return.

Licenses to use scripts/physical objects. Perhaps requiring one's been in world 1+ year and has knowledge of how stupidly constructed objects/scripts create headaches. Ok I'm joking, but seriously some of the crap laying around is pathetically stupid (such as many TINY TINY TINY multi-prim physical constantly running "smoke grenades". Or moving physical objects that really ought to only move and be physical if someone's around (hello: touch, sensor, listen events).

Driving me nuts.
</rant>

Boso

p.s.
Ratings are removed in the next patch, correct? Thanks!

Phil said they are thinking about ways to make sure you get as much script execution time as you have land in a sim.

Hey huns
Yeah that's a good idea, have thought of that before as it seems an exceptable measuring stick (and I have a nice plot hehe). Still litter and such is an on-going world-wide problem.

I certainly don't mind someone making things on my land, plenty of room -- just clean up after yourself.

I wish we could see how many resources each object was using.

I think the only solution is to buy an island and ban everyone :p

edit turned off stupid smilies.

Wouldn't that make vehicles, Pixel, Scrubbie, and similar items pretty much useless?

I'm all for that

for stand-alone objects.

For objects being ridden or worn, I think it would be a bit unfair, since most of us don't spend all that much time in our home sim.

Wraith, Pixel and Scrubbie aren't worn or ridden. They're "bots" that follow you around and do various things.

This would also make pets completely useless.

I support limitations of scripts by how much land you and such...bringing back the 10$L per object will do nothing but agrivate people right now, though it might drive up the need to L$ thus having to make people pay more money to build...driving more people away from SL O_o but thats just my idea :3

Stupid stupid STUPID STUPID STUPID idea!

Do you know how much that would LIMIT creativity here?

No possibility of creating global weather systems.

No way of polling the entire grid for information.

No way (that I know of) of creating auto-update functionality.

All my fireflies in Seacliff would die. (i.e. No more group effort builds where someone who doesn't own land can still script.)

Why should scripting be limited to someone who can afford land (in every sim, even), or someone who can build prims effectively too?

Sure, I own land in one sim (which generally runs at something like 40 FPS, so don't start complaining yet, Bosozoku) but that doesn't help me when I want to set up vendors (or something similar) elsewhere, or send out a script to map the grid.

Something like this would also kill off GOM and VERTU, because as far as I know, they don't own land in the sims they're in.

I could no longer make house-calls to people and craft scripts for them on their land.

It would essentially make the entire WORLD a no-script zone.

It would have made the GameDev an impossibility.

Fucking STUPID idea, if you ask me.

Are texture artists limited to the amount of land they own? Head to Clovers'. The texture shop there has to have one of the LARGEST collections of textures ever compiled. Do you know how much LAG that creates (the framerate drop kind)? Do I see anyone complaining about that, or about Light prims, or anything else like that?

Maybe there should be a way for an entire sim to get together, call in a Linden, and have him find out where the lag is and make suggestions on improving performance, or pointing out what needs to be outright removed, but to limit a scripter's creativity based on land ownership?! What a STUPID idea.

[/B]
true (textures and lights) this generates a lot of lag in massive amounts buts all dependant on things the user controls(You can turn your draw distance down) intesive scripts will lag a sim no matter what and that effects everyone in the sim.
(edit)oh yah as for other sections not having restrictions...look at land building, it's restricted isn't it? I can only have 236 prims on my land, and well that sucks I want to go back to unlimited prims! j/k...but it's about the same what about free range scripting in the sand box?

How does the SANDBOX give me access to every sim? How does the sandbox let me create objects for a themed sim half the world away?

You want better sim performance? Here's what you do:

Pressure LL to remove the things that make people so eager to multi-thread. I mentioned to someone a few days ago that llInstantMessage was a bad thing for rapid-fire debug messages. The person asking the question wasn't even LOOKING for rapid-fire debug messages, I just mentioned it as an aside! At least two, maybe even three or four people jumped in with a suggestion! Instead of people saying "Just use llWhisper instead for that kind of thing" they said "Oh, you can multithread!" How much more lag do you think that causes? Ten scripts in one object instead of one? That's not good.

I'm not saying remove all the delays in LSL, I'm saying get rid of the needless ones. Like the 20 second delay to any *.secondlife.com address. Why should there be a spam-limiting delay on an email that CAN'T spam someone? I could see it for external emails, but internal ones, where people are just communicating between objects? That doesn't make sense!

Scripting 101 classes need to emphasise more on how many problems bad coding can cause.

And you know what the biggest way to solve simFPS problems are?

The people IN the sim getting together and working TOGETHER to solve their problems. Using the tools in the Debug menu that are provided to find out what's causing so much lag. Not looking to LL to solve all your problems for you.

True bad coding can always bring things down(this is why I don't code in the first place)but as long as there is coding..there will be idiots that try to code and fail, badly, limiting scripting ability is just one of the ideas to toning it down, your idea seems to have a great effectiveness too without castrating the scripting system, we could also ask LL to give us better sim boxes...

With all due respect and politeness:

If you don't script, please stay out of threads about scripting. For some of us, scripting is all we have in SL. It's the only thing we find fun. Don't voice your opinion in something you know very little about.

As I believe one of the original topics in the thread was about reinstuting taxes on object placement, this is very much a concern of mine, I was only offering input on the subject of script limitation from an alternative persepective , we've had taxes or restrictions on objects and textures(512x512 on the AV, though thats not a bad thing) for a long time but as far as I know we've never restritcted scripting in such ways as to limit the user to what they can do on their own land, scripting has always been free though time consuming, in most cases more time consuming then building or texturing and I greatly respect that, but does that mean it shouldn't suffer strict regulation as well?

Then let me rephrase: Please don't comment on -topics- (rather than threads) concerning scripts.

The problem with "strict regulation" of scripts is that it would destroy that which makes SL what it is. A myriad of objects in the world would no longer function. Script performance would be degraded. Hell, in a worst case scenario, all of your scripted attachments would cease to work. And again: The ability for scripters to lend their scripting ability to other people who DO own land would be removed entirely. The world would become a dead place. Want proof? Go to Seacliff. Check out the birds, the fish, the jellyfish, the fireflies, the butterflies, and tell me that those don't help contribute to the sim's theme.

Then sit there and tell me that you honestly believe that Seacliff would be the same without those objects. Certainly, some of those objects are present on land that is owned by the people who own those objects, but I know for a fact that the birds and fireflies are merely scripters adding their works to a themed sim without actually owning land there.

Multi-user malls would quite nearly cease to exist, or require MASSIVE restructuring, as people who were renting stalls could no longer use vendors, or would be forced to use vendors supplied by the mall owner (at which point the mall owner can code the vendor to steal money from transactions).

A great number of projects and buildings would cease to function as they are now, with no real way of restoring it to the way it was.

LSL scripters are already complaining about the limitations we already have. And yes, we DO have limitations. We do have things keeping us from scripting anything we want to. The problem is, such limitations have only caused scripters to find ways AROUND such limitations, and those ways around only end up creating more lag.

Honestly, if scripts are limited in this fashion, maybe scripters COULD find ways around the limitations to create the things they can "easily" create today. But I guarantee you that any such workarounds will only make MORE lag in the long run.

If you want better FPS in your sim, work with the people in that sim to get better FPS. I may end up crafting a "How to get better FPS in your sim" document on here, once I have a chance to.

Mole, please note the <rant>...</rant>, it's a semi-joke solution to a real problem. My solutions, as I stated "I'm joking", were mostly in jest. My annoyance at the poor sim performance isn't a joke.

Currently the sim is running at a steady 30-40simFPS. At ~27700 polls:

Scrubbie3 whispers: FPS range percents...
Scrubbie3 whispers: 1-50: 58.25%, 51-100: 35.36%, 101-150: 6.38%, 151-200: 0.00%, 201-250: 0.00%, 251-300: 0.00%, 301+: 0.00%
Scrubbie3 whispers: Dil percents (Stablity)...
Scrubbie3 whispers: 0.96-1.0: 52.87%, 0.90-0.95: 19.70%, 0.60-0.89: 27.26%, 0.40-0.59: 0.10%, 0.0-0.39: 0.05%
(polls every 2 seconds) For fifteen solid hours the sim has been running like crap. I'm sorry that your sim runs in the 40's, but I sure won't sit on my ass when my sim drops from a daily average of 200-300 to 30 because people are ignorant.

It's, in my opinion, due to a certain plot/group (when they're not in the sim, it runs fine at around 250 average. They don't seem to listen (and call me a noob) about paying attention to simFPS affects scripts have: "it [sim fps] doesn't matter, there's nothing you can do about it", said one genius.

Run Tasks is pushing almost 7.0ms, I'm no expert on it, but that seems pretty high. I've cruised the sim looking for way-ward junk, found little. I've watched the comings and goings. I've disabled my recent scripts that may have contributed to performance loss (nill affect). My guess is a nasty llSensorRepeat()/sensor() routine, but that's only a hunch -- get in range (of a certain plot) and sim performance is hosed). I've tried to inquire about it, no response other than a llSensorRepeat() does exist).

Even with Jack's, Ironchefs, Trimda's (who just moved out), and my plots running -- all massively scripted, the sim ran fine. Toss in the "other plot" and 1-5 residents near it and it's hosed. The problem is ignorance (and immaturity :p). Unlike the genius who thinks there is nothing you can do about it, there is something you can do. You can investigate, educate, and fix the problems to help relieve everyone's burden -- as we share CPU time. Which makes me think the idea to percent that out to plot size is a good idea. I'm certain there would be reserves for transient useage. But if you want to hose your CPU time, so be it. That, to me, is a better solution than the sim-wide hosing that goes on.

It's so bad I've actually spent time looking into an island, trying to justify play-ability vs cost (not worth it to me, monetarily but definitely it is the best solution at this time -- the only solution).

Boso

I disagree, what would limit this is your land size. You can't support a mall's scripts if you own a 512^m plot, just as you can't support the prims for the mall structure. Malls tend to have a lot of land for all the prims required. Thus they'd have a nice share of CPU time.

If cpu sharing time was intelligent it wouldn't even kick in until the sim's performance degrades to point xx, then quotas would begin to degrade each plot's time accordingly. I'd wager in most cases you'd never notice. In some cases though it would be apparant and thus lead to either people packing up and moving (lazy solution), or learning how to script more efficiently (wise solution).

Running other's scripts, writing scripts on others land, etc, would simply be limited to that land owner's plot size and cpu share. Why can someone with a 16^m plot abuse the CPU as much as me with 12000^m? This is how it is now. I could go get a 16^m plot in any sim (assuming one was actually available) and out-cpu everyone in the sim. It's a flawed system. It's worked for a long time, but during that long time user counts were low, scripting prowess was high. Now, imho, the reverse is true.

I do see your point, just that I don't believe it'd happen. I'd fully support cpu quotas.

Edit:
Mole, in one of your first posts you seem concerned that this would stop people from scripting on land they don't own. I disagree, dunno why you think this. You can BUILD on other's land. Your prims add to the plot's prim limit. Scripting on other's land (for fun, doing a job for someone, etc) would just eat into that land owner's CPU time. Nothing different from building, just that script cpu plot-quotas would be in affect.

Bos

Alright well then I'll shut my hole about scripting, I admit I know dick about except how to change vaules or expressions to make it do what I want(reference and object or animation), but instuting more limitations into the object system will only piss builders off, but if you castrate the script system, you piss the scripters off hmmm

That was my impression of the idea put forth. If that's not the case, and it would simply be "anyone who has scripts on this land is limited by the size of the land" then I have different problems with it. Namely that that means someone could come by, drop a single prim with 255 highly processor intensive scripts on it on my land, and wreak havoc on my other scripted objects.

I still think that the ultimate solution does NOT involve adding even more limitations on top of what scripters already deal with, but instead will come from teaching people how to clean up their own sims.

As soon as I get my latest project finished, I'll write up a proposal to help. The project I'm working on should make the proposal feasable.

EDIT: Also, limiting scripting to parcel size still holds the potential to lag a sim. If everyone uses their limit, or if someone comes along and simply drops the described object above on each parcel in the sim, you have the same problem. Something ELSE must be done.

Hypothetically, sure it has the potential. But as it is now, the potential already exists and is sim-wide no matter what you try. At least if plot-size == xx% of cpu usage I'd know that when I hose MY cpu time, I'm at fault and I can cure the problem. As it is now there's no way other than attempting to ask people what their running (which so far has gotten me no where), or maybe ask the Lindens to investigate (more burden for them and annoying as well).

Personally I'd like the (idea of) cpu time quotas to be directly linked to Owner (of the script/scripted obj) or group set on the object (group land, etc). Any other objects running scripts on Joe's land would get a chunk of the "transient" cpu quota, thus not affecting you, or your neighbors, but only affecting any other "transient" objects.

If you do work for Joe, scripting him some butterflies or whatever, then he takes ownership of them, then all is well. Else your butterflies continue to use the transient quota.

I'd imagen all quotas are dynamic and only are active when the sim is seriously burdened (like when noob_00 decides to res 100 scripted sensomatics). I personally don't see anything bad with the idea. One will have to manage their land a bit more, but so be it -- right now it's a free for all.

Btw, Blue hit an all-time low yesterday. Here's the last 6-day Scrubbie report! Joy! Polls are 2sec intervals, so 43200 would be a full day's worth, which is never hit (due normal script cpu slice timing, etc)


Object-Name: Scrubbie3
Region: Blue (255744, 257536)
Local-Position: (214, 62, 34)

-------------------------------------------------------
--==[ Last 6 Days ]==--
2004-08-24 :: Avg: 43, Low: 6, High: 143, Polls: 42651
2004-08-23 :: Avg: 166, Low: 7, High: 291, Polls: 42959
2004-08-22 :: Avg: 188, Low: 7, High: 292, Polls: 42957
2004-08-21 :: Avg: 172, Low: 8, High: 285, Polls: 42958
2004-08-20 :: Avg: 166, Low: 7, High: 312, Polls: 42952
2004-08-19 :: Avg: 194, Low: 29, High: 291, Polls: 13106

--==[ FPS Range Breakdowns (percent of all polls), Last 6 Days ]==--
2004-08-24 :: 1-50: 72.96%, 51-100: 22.89%, 101-150: 4.13%, 151-200: 0.00%, 201-250: 0.00%, 251-300: 0.00%, 301+: 0.00%
2004-08-23 :: 1-50: 0.51%, 51-100: 4.90%, 101-150: 33.37%, 151-200: 37.74%, 201-250: 21.61%, 251-300: 1.85%, 301+: 0.00%
2004-08-22 :: 1-50: 0.37%, 51-100: 2.87%, 101-150: 14.13%, 151-200: 40.65%, 201-250: 38.19%, 251-300: 3.76%, 301+: 0.00%
2004-08-21 :: 1-50: 0.46%, 51-100: 9.32%, 101-150: 18.72%, 151-200: 40.34%, 201-250: 29.51%, 251-300: 1.63%, 301+: 0.00%
2004-08-20 :: 1-50: 0.42%, 51-100: 13.70%, 101-150: 27.25%, 151-200: 28.54%, 201-250: 22.45%, 251-300: 7.56%, 301+: 0.05%
2004-08-19 :: 1-50: 0.29%, 51-100: 5.16%, 101-150: 12.38%, 151-200: 31.22%, 201-250: 39.50%, 251-300: 11.42%, 301+: 0.00%

--==[ Dil percentages ]==--
2004-08-24 :: 0.96-1.0: 60.47%, 0.90-0.95: 14.01%, 0.60-0.89: 25.12%, 0.40-0.59: 0.21%, 0.0-0.39: 0.16%
2004-08-23 :: 0.96-1.0: 97.59%, 0.90-0.95: 1.86%, 0.60-0.89: 0.35%, 0.40-0.59: 0.08%, 0.0-0.39: 0.09%
2004-08-22 :: 0.96-1.0: 97.68%, 0.90-0.95: 1.75%, 0.60-0.89: 0.40%, 0.40-0.59: 0.11%, 0.0-0.39: 0.04%
2004-08-21 :: 0.96-1.0: 96.80%, 0.90-0.95: 2.56%, 0.60-0.89: 0.52%, 0.40-0.59: 0.07%, 0.0-0.39: 0.03%
2004-08-20 :: 0.96-1.0: 96.08%, 0.90-0.95: 3.25%, 0.60-0.89: 0.57%, 0.40-0.59: 0.05%, 0.0-0.39: 0.03%
2004-08-19 :: 0.96-1.0: 97.13%, 0.90-0.95: 2.47%, 0.60-0.89: 0.35%, 0.40-0.59: 0.03%, 0.0-0.39: 0.00%
-------------------------------------------------------

This small example shows a real problem in how scripting is a free for all. The sim has been brought to it's knees. Every resident and visitor is affected. That just seems wrong. When a sim, which normally runs so-so (acceptable levels) is running 72.96% (17.33 hours!!) at pure crap simFPS levels then something needs fixed/adjusted/balanced. It's too hard policing indiviguals, the only solution I see is the (hinted at) idea of cpu quotas. Also look how bad the dilation is: 25% of the day the sim was struggle'n (well I personally consider anything <90 as "bad", in particular if it's that way for a period of time (6 hours worth yesterday!)).



Now, please continue suffering through my 5am drivel...

You have raised valid points. But I think a smart system would work, solving/eliminating your concerns.

A quota system would need to only go into affect when the sim starts running poorly (say 200simFPS for theory's sake).
So, soon as Sim X hits 200FPS the quota kicks in, the primary goal is to insure that Residents of Sim X continue to run their scripts. Residents of Sim X, afterall, should be the priority for Run Tasks in Sim X.

If the sim was running fine, I see no reason any quotas would need to be established -- it's only when performance gets low that such quotas would need to kick into action -- ensuring Residents get priority, and governed by plot size (so far the defacto prim limiter).

Groups would need to be taken into consideration, just as they are with prim quotas/auto-delete.

Just like Auto-Delete, transient scripts need to be the lowest priority, to the point of just not getting any cycles. The number one goal should be maintaining run tasks for residents during poor sim performance.

If Joe's holding a party on his land, and Sally comes to visit wearing her scripted bracelet, but sim performance drops to terrible levels, then I see absolutely no reason that Sally's bracelet should get 0% CPU time, while Joe's dance-o-matic plot of land gets xx% - guaranteed. Thus continuing the festivities. Heck Sally probably won't even notice her online-alerter super-senso stopped functioning. Actually Sally probably doesn't even know it's scripted to begin with. :p Anywho, Joe's parties are a success because his dance-o-matic never fails. The sim, while somewhat slow, is survivable because when performance is so bad the cpu is now smart enough to know to just NOT run all the transient crap. Thus giving more time to avatar processing (dancing and those really nifty sexual animations, huzzah!) :p

Bos

Edit: Change code flag to quote flag cuz it was long...
edit2: removed quote cuz it's stupid too, added intriguing dashed lines.

<rant>
For the last 6 hours Blue has had a MAX simFPS of 27 (out of 11,000+ polls). Sim's averaging 21. :p 3 people in the sim at the moment (steady 20-21 fps, occasionally dips to teens, saw it hit 22 once after staring at scrubbie for about 5 minutes).
</rant>

Unplayable.

I'm going to bed :p