Unwanted camera movement in Appearance mode.

This is a followup (as requested) to Kelly's answer to my question about unwanted camera movement when entering and exitting Appearance mode posted in the Hotline to Linden forum.

I have both of the camera movement options unticked (disabled), and my post was specifically about the remaining movement during entry to and exit from the mode.

For those who have unticked (disabled) the movement options, it makes total sense, I assure you.

Not for those who have specifically disabled camera movement options. After all, that's the whole point of disabling them. Anyone who wants system-triggered movement would check (enable) the relevant movement option. Seriously, when you select movement OFF, it's because you want movement OFF.

The entire "Leave My Camera Alone!" thing was created by the original "It makes sense to move" design being considered extremely annoying by some of us. OK, maybe we're just wierd to want to control our own cameras without the system interfering, but still, that was the goal when asking for our cameras to be left alone.

Now that we thankfully have those controls as options, it's annoying that the Appearances one still doesn't prevent movements on entry and exit. Oh, and the movement on exit is HUGE (the one on entry isn't so bad). I think it does a total camera reset.

To evaluate this, try moving the camera around pivotted on some point that isn't the character, and also move it away from the av, and then select Appearances. If you examine various combinations of pivotted camera navigation and avatar movement followed by entering and exitting Appearances, you'll see how daft it actually behaves. Most of the time the avatar is rotated to face some irrelevant direction (always 180 degrees with respect to its original heading, but unrelated to the camera position). And the camera reset on exit is massive and totally bad.

I can summarize this quite simply: the camera and avatar movements assume that you let your camera trail along behind the avatar, so that in Appearances the av is turned around to face you. For anyone else, the av movements are largely unhelpful, and sometimes just funny --- ie. what's the point of having an av that's looking towards the SouthWest switch around to look towards the NorthEast when entering Appearances? None. The associated camera movements don't have that slight redeeming feature of being funny though, they're merely annoying, at least for those of us who have selected movement OFF and hence want no unsolicited camera movement at all.

Yes it's true that the camera is now left alone once already in Appearances (and that's very welcome). Alas, on occasion the character spins around 180 degrees on every single button within Appearances that you click!!! A body part, an item of clothing, anything you touch ... 180 degrees spin spin spin. I can't find a way of triggering it reliably yet, but when I find one I'll report it. I think you have some small bugs there.

Done.

Here is an additional idea though which may help you resolve the camera movement issue (the av movement is secondary). Why not consider anyone who has unticked both the Edit movement box and the Appearance movement box as being died-in-the-wool and unequivocally opposed to having the system deliver such unsolicited movement, and not do it? That might be a way out, although personally I think that there are only pro-movement and anti-movement camps in the community, without any middle ground. You could of course provide a middle ground undecided tick box.

Yes, but what I wrote in that 2nd part of my post was:

Ie. the ability to pivot on anything except the character has been lost. You can't orbit nor pan unless your pivot is the character, which of course means that you're pretty restricted in navigation until you leave Appearances. Even the little camera control window doesn't work the same anymore. It's all quite unnecessary.

There's no real reason for changing the way in which the camera operates after you've gone into Appearances mode, it should work as normal. Indeed, Appearances only needs to be a mode in the sense of raising the Appearances window. Even the pose should be optional, because some people want to model changes of clothing from Appearances while adopting their own poses.

As in the case of system-imposed camera and avatar movements, the Appearance pose is a case of the standard functionality doing too much. No camera movement, no avatar movement, no poses please, unless people specifically select them. Of course, default options that can be unticked (and work!) are always welcome. Maybe some funny person even wants the av to rotate from SE to NW on entry to Appearances, who knows ... make such things as 180-degree rotation selectable options and you have the greatest chance of keeping most people happy.

yes,
First let us resize, AND Minamize the appearance window.
And also when right clicking and chosing appearance. It should act just like Right click > edit.
As in the camera should not move at all, "If you have checked the box", and your av should not be the only freggen thing you can focus the camera on.
Also it should not re-center the view to move it off to the right, Im sure this was to make things easier because of the HUGE size of the apperance window, But if I want the camera re-centerd like that Ill do it myself.
Then of corse leave it be on exit also.

The 180 rotation is ok because Normaly your view is behind the av. But if your serous about what your doing youll have the view where you want it already, Or youll be moving it where you want it. So the animation isnt needed. Or you should be able to use any animation you want that you have in your inventory.

Or...
For the animation, how about instead just posing your av in realtime, Like ragdolls in.. "Read sig".

Indeed. We wierd folk who turn off automatic movements actually move our cameras where we want them. But then of course, the automatic 180 degs flip rotates the av in exactly the opposite direction, to somewhere unwanted.

It's clearly nonsense to do the 180 flip if someone has manually moved their camera before entering Appearances --- by definition it means that they've selected their vantage point already. Retaining the flip suggests that camera movers are expected to move their camera back to the rear of the av before selecting Appearances. Did I use the word nonsense already? Well it deserves repeating.

I got tired of looking at my bum a long time ago, and my characters always face towards me nowadays. Having the av flip away from me when entering Appearances is just wierd .... are they shy? Really, when Movement in Appearances is unselected, the av should not rotate, at least not if the camera has been moved manually.

And it goes without saying that the camera position should not be touched at all, especially the mega camera reset on exit. That's just silly.

Noted, thanks.

It's not going to get much traffic because there are far bigger fish to fry. But if the devs are tidying up this area at some point, if would be nice if they completed the "no movement" job ... especially that mega camera reset at the end.

Good point, I didn't pick up on this part of your comment earlier.

It ties in with the whole issue of "Appearances should not be a mode", but merely a window that pops up, and the window should be a normal wiindow, hence minimizable and resizeable as you say. Then if it weren't a mode there would be no loss of navigation pivot, no camera switching or resetting, no free av rotations or poses (unless appropriate options were enabled).

As I mentioned before, it does too much on the basis that "it makes sense" or "it could be helpful". Well fine, I don't disagree ... it's just that this no longer applies when people have expressly turned movement off.