Pernicious Bouncer Scripts

I found this old thread from Cory -- I don't know if all these things were implemented (this is from 2003) but I think they are currently available, and if not all, at least the most important tools for keeping annoying avatars away from the enjoyment of your game and your property.

Meanwhile, on the subject of bouncer scripts in general, I found little discussion, but the general received wisdom that they are "ok" because they are part of "I can do what I want on my property" -- the freedom we all wish for ourselves, but the freedom we all wish others would use more responsibly.

Why do Lindens allow bouncer scripts that bounce avs half way across sims, often up in the air or out into voids? If weapons that do that are banned in "safe areas", why are they allowed in the form of "house security"? And if Lindens sometimes *do* remove scripts of this type -- we've been told they have done it for at least one major land-owner -- and if they sometimes *do* ban players who use bounce scripts, why can't they be consistent?

I have posted a hotline note to the Lindens about the pernicious problem that effectively ruins the enjoyment of people's properties and businesses for many squares around those who chose to maliciously use these functions. I've cited all my arguments against them there.

I find two kinds of people using them:

1) Innocents who were harassed once in the game, usually when they were new, and didn't realize that griefers usually move on, they often leave after trial accounts, and they often forget about you the next day. Planning your life around them with defensive action only makes you a nuisance to your neighbours and preoccupies you with revenge. The best policy is to report them, and ignore them.

Most innocents don't realize they can go: right-click/about land/ban avatars in three easy clicks and type in the name of the offenders -- or "ban all" except themselves and their friends. Very very easy and effective. I don't like when people do this because they create an ugly red-lined wall around their property that bumps you as you try to fly, but it is tolerable, within the game norms, and you can just fly around it because it really is only a bump AND it warns you "can't come on property not on list". That's different than the pernicious bounce script that hits you without warning and bounces you far from your home.

2) Malicious gloaters who think they should have maximum property rights and just like to offend people and feel like tough mafias. No matter how patiently you explain that they could more effectively use land tools and not harass their neighbours, they still buy these scripts and install them because it makes them feel like RL homeowners installing a big macho security system. They don't feel the effects of the bounce nor do their guests, so they don't care. They have no concept of neighbourliness or community, and their response to even the most polite inquiry is to imply that you are harassing them, which is most idiotic because you a) didn't touch their avatar b) didn't devalue their property; c) didn't interfere with the flight access to their residence or business. They are objectively harming you, whereas at most, you are only subjectively "harming" their inflated macho sense of themselves.

Here is my policy regarding these offensive pernicious devices:

1. I ban them from all my properties, for sale or for rent, so if you are bounced from a property with one, you can rest assured it is not ON my property or any of our group properties but possibly only NEAR these properties.

2. I instantly, no questions asked, negrate the person who uses the bounce script AND I negrate the owner of the building on their property. Is this fair? Yes. Because in my experience, people don't respond to polite inquiries, or they are offline and ignore things like this, but when you negrate them, you get their attention. When the offending script is removed, I promptly remove the negrates. Is it fair to negrate merely a builder on a property? Yes, because builders who contribute to people who use pernicious bounce scripts must also take responsibility for what constitutes a type of weapon, and a pernicious devaluation of property for many squares around. They don't get to do this.

3. I report the bounce script as abuse to the Lindens. It is abuse. I expect the Lindens to record it in their nighly after-action memos, if they have such a system. I report it to live Lindens online, to get their attention to this chronic problem, and of course I use the abuse report customer service system to alert Lindens to this form of griefing.

4. I encourage all neighbours, tenants, and roomies, as well as any patrons of businesses affected by the script, to negrate the land owners and the builders of buildings on the properties of those who use pernicious bouncer scripts. If it is group-owned, that means messages and negrates to all the officers.

5. I supply $75 stipends to any tenant/neighbour/patron harmed by the use of these pernicious scripts, so that they may negrate the offending property owner and builder on the property using these pernicious scripts.

Negrating is a legal operation in the game. It is used to express disapproval of an action. It is legitimate, it is healthy. Giving of $75 gifts to other players in the game is also legal. Anyone who finds this a form of "harassment" is welcome to take it up with the Lindens. The Lindens need to examine the issues of harm of avatars and devaluation of residences and businesses caused by bouncing scripts before they rush to defend pernicious bounce script users.

What about just a friendly note asking someone to reconsider their use of the bounce script? Oh, I do that, that's my first response. But in 90 percent of the cases, the bounce script user is so wedded to his or her macho sense of power that they refuse to part with this script and its side effects. So they get a negrate, an abuse report, and an encouragement of others to negrate and abuse-report.
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Rent space from stalls to whole floors at Pharos Island Merchant Tower in Ross, the mall alternative.

I think you should clarify something. In one statement you say you neg rate the owner of a building and later you say the builder of a building. I assume you mean the owner of a building and not the builder/creator. Alot of people build for others as their main form of income and have nothing to do with a security script being added after the build is complete.

Yes, but sadly too few people can tell the difference between owner and creator. People keep getting negged for stuff *I* should be getting negged for!

This has been debated, Ad infinitum.

[Broken Record]

More granular land tools, and the ability to delegate those land tools to others - will make "security scripts" pointless. This is what will ultimately but this debate to bed.

[/Broken Record]

In the mean time, security scripts are the only option for folks who need to delegate ejection permissions to others to combat grief - but do not hold group-deeded land.

Travis,

The existing land-tool functions are perfect for banning avs by individual name, or banning everyone except for the avs you want. What's not to like? They bump, don't bounce, and they provide red visible lines. This is all you need as an individual owner.

You can make a group, put 3 of your friends together, for $100 -- what you would pay for a pernicious bounce script -- put your land in that group, or even just set your individually-owned land to that group and deed it to that group with the understanding from the other group members that it is yours and you take it back at will. Then you set the group land to ban everybody except the group members, or to the same av bans -- but honestly, you don't need to do that! An individual has all the rights and privileges they need to ban avs or ban all except avs from their land.

I don't care if it is a broken record, and if celebrated scripters view any attack even on pernicious scripts as a blow to their hegemony and sanctity. These evil things must go. They devalue land and demean game experience. This angle hasn't been developed as much and I intend to develop it robustly.



The OWNER not the CREATOR. A creator of say, a prefab, or a custom builder, should not be dinged for what someone does with their building of course.

In the specific cases I am addressing, the builder of the builder -- the creator -- and the owner were the same, and in another, the owner of the property was one person, but the builder of the builder/creator was not merely some disinterested party, but a previous resident on that property, so it is not a question of harming a random creator or prefab builder by negrating, but a question of sending a very pointed message to someone who owned and sold land in that area and who had influence over that current owner of that pernicious script. It's highly relevant, justifiable, and I encourage others to examine the situation and join me in this effort.

Prokofy,

Curious about your opinion of my setup.

I joined SL back in early January. Hooked up with a small group of people that owned a lot of land in one of the SIMs. Since they haven't developed it, they told me it would be all right if I wanted to build a house and squat there until they needed the space. So, I went and bought a nice prefab home (since my building skills are poor and I didn't wanna create an eyesore) and started buying things to put inside.

A few weeks ago my home was surrounded by people in strange airships. No one actually made it inside (guess they chose not to use a phantom script), but it got me to thinking that I might wanna invest in a security system. Like yourself, I hate flying from a Telehub to a destination only to be TPed home by someone's script. So, I decided a security system wasn't really necessary, since things in my home are 'bolted down.'

About a week ago, I caught someone trying to edit my door script to gain entry. I stood behind the person for over a minute ... apparently with his edit tools up he didn't see my little green dot approach. I told him that people usually knock before trying to gain entry, he made some rye comment and flew off. Once again, he couldn't edit the script.

I decided that I did want a security system not so much to protect my contents, but more for the principle that others should respect the fact that my doors are locked and my blinds are drawn.

I was still faced with my original concern that random passers by would be inconvenienced by me satisfying my point -- which isn't fair. So, this is what I came up with. I bought a AV detector. The standard outgoing message is a welcome message telling the visitor they have been added to your detector. I contacted the maker of the device and asked her (a really nice lady, BTW) to please edit my outgoing message. It reads "Warning <Username>, you are approaching private property -- come closer and risk TP home." (Which I can't TP anyone home, rather just push, since I'm not the actual owner of the parcel, but the point is made.) I have to detector set to 30 m -- just beyond the outer boundary of my property. WHEN I purchase a security bouncer I intend to set it very low -- just to encompass my home itself and not restricting the air space above.

So, there's warning that the AV will be booted, no restriction of the air space and the only AV's that will be pushed would actually have to be right on my front porch. Having the same basic feelings about bouncer scripts as yourself, would you say this is a suitable way of protecting yourself and yet not infringing on anyone's right to move around freely in SL?

You comments are very much welcome and thanks for your opinion!

Chaser,

what evidence do you have that he was trying to edit your script to gain entry? You'll often find me arm outstretched with little particles trailing to some scripted device or other, perhaps looking at who the creator of the object or script is. Hell, I may even be using it to rate someone. It certainly doesn't mean I'm trying to hack you, and frankly it's hard enough trying to set perms to let people edit your scripts at the best of times! I don't think it's likely your scripts are going to be editable by anyone who doesnt have mod perms on your stuff, and the object and scripts are set as moddable.

And anyone who wanted to pass your scripted door can do so without bothering to edit a script

I thought security scripts that bounce avatars across a sim ARE ALREADY illegal.

Kris,

After my comment about knocking first, I asked this person why he was trying to edit my door. He told me he was just seeing what he could do with my door and flew off. Like you stated a phantom script would've put him inside w/o any trouble, so I'm not sure what the point was in him trying to edit the door.

You can't actually exploit the phantom avatar bug any more. But you can sit on a prim and move yourself inside - no script needed.

As to the comment, I still wouldn't be so sure he was trying to hack it. My first assumption as a scripter if someone made that comment to me would be that they were seeing if it had any public commands. After all, you can easily tell an object is scripted, but you dont necessarily know what you're supposed to do with it until you poke around with the object!

It's not a crime to be looking at the object tabs for someone elses stuff - its how you are expected to rate if you like it, even! Like I say, I poke around in stuff a lot because I'm curious or generally interested, not because I want to try and hack it.

Of course I don't know the person or their intentions, just saying you should be wary of assuming that it was anything mischevious.

Prokofy - I wasn't referring to you as a broken record - I was referring to my own request for better land tools as a broken record. However, this topic has been debated heavily, with strong opinions on both sides.

Here's the problem with the existing land tools - allow me to provide a real-world scenerio:

Say I'm the sole landowner of a event-spot. I have several volunteers who help out so that coverage is nearly 24/7. Because its an event-spot, it gets more than the usual share of griefing incidents, due to the number of unique AV's that visit. Also, my volunteers come & go over time, because... they're volunteers

Because I can't be on 24/7, I need to give the volunteers the ability to eject folks that are causing problems.

To do this today, I have three options:

1. Deed the land to group, and make the volunteers officers of that group.

Problem: Things change in time, people go their seperate ways, drama happens. With the group structure today, there is no way to un-make a group member an officer once it is done, unless it is of their own accord. Moreover, the "recall election" function is even more scary if you're talking about a small group where only one person is the true land owner - and the other officers are simply in the group for land permissions reasons. All it would take is one rogue officer to cause a world of heartache.

2. Create a security script where I can delegate those functions programatically.

Problem: Horrible PR. No matter how small I make the ejection radius - no matter how I council people to use it only in extreme cases, someone out there is going to take an issue with it. What's more - its a reactive solution to grief. A proactive response - preventing the grief before it happens, is much more effective IMHO.

3. Do nothing. If I'm not online, and grief happens, have the volunteer contact a Liason.

Problem: Unfortunately, Liasons don't have the staffing to act quickly, and in most cases, by the time they do, the griefing incident has alread passed, and the damage has already been done. Its amazing how many hundred bananna phones an AV can rez in the 10 minutes it can take to get a Liason response.


If you have a better solution to this dilemma, by all means - I'm definately open to new ideas But from my perspective, the only thing that is going to solve my issue is better land tools, and/or groups that I can better tailor to their purpose.

I think that this script function is like a lot of script functions - they can be used, and they can be misused. The misuse of them is the problem - not the functions themselves. Removing them without a viable replacement toolset first would introduce a whole host of new issues, IMHO.

Travis

I agree with you there. Just struck me kinda strange. If he would've been more forthcoming as to his intentions I would've felt better about the situation. Then again, my comment about 'people usually knock first' was admittedly confrontational in nature. I'll do better next time, I promise!

Chaser,

What I don't understand about this is why you don't just put av bans on your property with the normal property tools. You either ban all except yourself and your friends to keep the griefers away, or you ban certain avs.

I appreciate the notification system. This is something that seems to sell the Lindens on the bouncer scripts -- if they provide adequate notification. I don't like that, because it is still annoying, aggressive, and intrusive -- just because I fly from the telehub, as you yourself pointed out, I have to keep my wits about me and read all the messages coming at me, that start sometimes with the Lindens' annoying card for newbies, and try to avoid all these av bouncers. It's unfair.

I need to understand why you don't use the less-invasive tools right on your land.

Also, nobody can edit your door script. So in that situation, just boot and ban and report. It can't go further.

Travis, you are describing the headaches of a club. I sympathize, as I used to manage one and still sometimes manage events with this kind of hassle. I personally opt for openness instead of closedness because i don't want to drive away legitimate customers. Maybe you have to use a script like this in a big club or event space.

But we are talking about RESIDENTIAL AREAS or stripmalls with small businesses and stores along a highway. It's silly to treat those as venues for chronic grief attacks -- they just aren't. There aren't clubs or malls or anything, so it is just houses and little businesses.

People who put in an aggressive intrusive bouncing script in that setting have to be questioned. Why? Use land tools if you must -- but is it really necessary?

I was just able to successfully convince one neighbour to change from the group ban tool just because I was able to make the case for it not being necessary. It isn't necessary. Grief attacks usually happen once at random. Only if you are regularly harassed would you need to move to more extreme measures. This idea that you have to become a nuisance to your neighbours forever, just because someone was once bad to you, doesn't fly with me. So ofte, people load their lot with a bounce script or the ban tools, go offline for weeks, and don't even log in. Meanwhile the rest of us logging in ever day and trying to use the area are constantly inconvenienced.

I can think of an incident once where a tenant had one silly grief incident where some random passers-by put an object on the lot and sent some IMs to him, but he was unable to shrug it off, he insisted on becoming overly aggressive and putting a "guard dog" on his lot to track and push off avs. And I ban these from my lots because they are just way too intrusive and annoying to everyone else. As everybody knows, all you have to do to get into someone's house is sit on a prim! Or spy with your camera. There is really no true privacy in SL. And truly determined griefers use alts you can't track. So really, the sensible thing to do with minor griefing is to ignore it, and with major griefing is to report it and get collective reporting and negrating going on it, because that really gets attention.

:d

Unfortunately, the parcel that I live on is bigger then the area that I have developed ... much bigger. I would have to have the owners of the land to re-parcel my little corner and then setup the ban lines. I would also hate to bother the owners every time I want to add/delete someone off the ban list. I'm not sure how it works when a person rents a home from someone, but assuming the renter isn't made an officer of the land the solution I suggest would be their only recourse. Like I said, I'm 'newish' and not sure how the renting process works in SL.

As far as folks flying over my land and getting my detector message -- I myself fly higher then 30 m to avoid lagging trying to get to where I'm going. I am trying the best I can not to offend anyone and granted not everyone has a slow system like myself and may fly within the 30 m height of my detector and get my notification. I could set the notification of my detector lower, but that would also limit the space of my warning.

Understanding that your wish is for there to be NO devices to 'protect' people's land would you say that in my situation, if I insist on having a security system, that I have taken ever precaution to avoid grieving people -- protecting them from the same kind of intrusive behavior that I'm trying to protect myself from? (How's that for a run-on sentence! )

I agree with some of you.

When compared to robust land protection scripts, the UI tools are weak to say the least. They do not provide sufficient protection.

Sure I can't come on your property. But I can fly up over you close enough to read your watch, drop things on your head, put things on your property, put things half on/half off your property (as long as the root isn't on your land you can't remove it), direct temp on rez objects which self replicate onto your land, and so forth. Interestingly, because according to LL they do not impact the server significantly, the latter practice has been deemed legal...which leads us to ask, "what, exactly, are my rights as a land owner?". I do not believe the answer to this question has been defined to an appropriate extent at all. It seems to live somewhere between "it's my land so go scratch", and LL's standard "case by case" response. It almost seems they want a great deal of land ownership rights to remain uncertain so they don't get committed to any absolute policy regarding ownership other than the points that are so evident that not unilaterally enforcing them would be laughable (like, I can ban you from my property. But...how exactly am I allowed to ban you? Case by case...)

Overall, simply banning somebody with essentially an invisible bounded box is not proving effective. The best approach is a combination of the land ban, with a supporting ejectfromland script placed at the top of the bounding box with an additional upward radius of 30ish meters, and object detection/fling scripts to prevent physical objects from being effective on your land (like bullets).

And of course, none of this protects you from a directed bounce.

What about secret hideouts 500 meters in the air? You should be able to bounce people from there, what ever I am doing with my animation balls is no ones business.

Actually, I'm going to be releasing a product soon that should end the problem of overzealous security scripts. People who already have a security script will be able to get a 50% discount on the product.


Unfortunately, I'm having some login issues at the moment... but expect it out within the week.

So scripters tell land owners that their land is only so high and it fine for them (scripters) to do what they want above it (ie People vs Fats). Then the scripters turn around and write scripts to boot people passing by even at heights above the levels they used against homeowners in defending Fats. Seems like scripters want to have their cake (and mine) and eat it too.

Exactly.

I still don't get it. I don't get quite what Chase is saying, and as far as "area I developed" where you are only the owner of one part, I don't understand why it is your ambition then to police the entire sim from one corner using capacious bounce scripts. Makes no sense. Let those other owners take care of putting avs on ban.

Tenants just give me their ban list and I put it in the land as an officer. As members they cannot add to it. But I don't put their entire lot on ban, I refuse to do that because it is just a royal nuisance, especially as people try to build or plant and keep ramming into stupid red lines by people who are offline a lot anyway. I will accept their av ban list and put it in.

I don't get the point about the temp on rez. This is the pernicious land scanner thing for one. No bounce script can stop them. I see them in operation all the time. So I have to ask the rationale for the bounce script. I have to hear real stories where people can really justify it instead of av bans or ban-all-but group etc. I have yet to hear a single convincing story.

Well, I can give you a legit instance of bounce scripting. In the Vorago, which is an FPS/FFA type game arena, there are objects with animated up arrows. Walk on one, you will bounce. It is the same exact script for the most part that you will find in any bouncer gun. It's an integral part of the game and I'd be upset if I could not use the capability.

However, the bouncers are marked and the effect voluntary (except maybe the first time if you're like "hmm it says bouncer, and it pointing up, but I'm braindead today and 2+2 is not = 4 atm, so I'll just have to put my hand on the stove).

Bouncing is also a legit way to handle non-temp on rez physical objects. However, now that the various script exploiters have shown how this can be used to piss people off and put objects in places you are powerless to protect, that may be moot.

Possibly there should be a cap on the force. Right now it appears more or less infinite (or infinite enough to blow an av right off the LL servers). Maybe it should not be allowed to throw you over the current sim border. I dunno, but something. Possibly a setting that disallows any script not owned by you to take an action on you...maybe bouncing should be permissions based. If they can detect a bounce sufficiently to pop up a message and abuse report form, they should be able to do something explicit to avoid this.

Thank you. Simple, effective, neat. Works both ways, too. Griefers can try to use scripts on you, and you can't be affected. And anti-griefers can repel griefers, but not with bounce scripts that affect avs.

Let me try to clarify. I do not own any land. I don't pay tier fees, I don't have any edit powers over the land and I don't have the ability to set up ban lines. I simply put a house on someone's large parcel of land that said I could for now. The only way I can eject someone away from my home is using a bouncer script.

I have no need nor intention of policing the entire SIM. That's the whole point of setting up such restrictive and outwardly informative AV detectors and scripts. You would have to be right on top of my home to even get a detector whisper and practically inside to get a push. Your implication is lost on me.

Either way, I thank you for your opinions. I haven't set anything up around my home as of yet -- my AV detector quietly sends me messages and is silenced otherwise. Perhaps when/if I do feel it is imperative in the future to setup security there will be a solution available that suits us both.