Unofficial Prop 4 Discussion Thread (Havoc 2)

The Havoc 2 Proposition's wording is a bit misleading, and the discussion of this proposal could use its own thread.

My understanding of some of the features of Havoc 2 are :

- Better physics engine (especially complex collissions)
- >32 prim limit on physics objects
- Better vehicle behavior
- Better joints

There may be more...

- Ace

I'm not even sure why it's on there or why people are voting for it. It WILL happen. In 1.7. As already categorically stated by Linden Lab. Use your vote for something you want to see that isn't necessarily on the '100% already decided features list'!

But yes. It won't, in and of itself, mean either more avs to a sim or 'better' physics per se. It is a platform from which improvements and stability will eventually facilitate some of these possibilities.

I predict a lot of people are going to be severely disappointed by the introduction of Havok2. It seems to have been hyped up into some magical mystical thing that's going to transform SL into something wonderful. I'd lay money bets on it that half if not all of the things Ace mentions above don't even make it into the first Havok releases. Because just updating the engine doesn't automatically bring about a whole host of new features. It just means they can be added in the future.

The proposal was created by "Voting System Admin", so I'm assuming the Lindens put it out there. Perhaps they simply want confirmation that this is a high priority for the SL community.

- Ace

I hope this doesn't seem contrarian, it's really just something I've been curious about for a while. And since this is on the general forum it seems like as good a place to ask as any.

I've noticed a lot of anticipation for Havok 2, and it surprises me only because I haven't noticed that much physics being used in SL. So I'm curious what people want Havok 2 for? Are there a lot of things being done with physics that I wouldn't notice just flying around? Is it mainly because of vehicles? I understand a detail like linking more than 32 prims on physical objects, but what would this be used for? Or better joints?

These are honest questions, I'm not against Havok 2, just curious.

^ I believe that is likely the case as well, and that there is some sort of psychological wish-fulfillment in being able to rock the physics-enabled vote with HAVOK 2. While it is no magic supplier of apples and bananas, it certainly will be a practical, fun upgrade to SL when it's added, so even if glaringly obvious and an inevitable necessity, I'd speak up for it just to let LL know and so everyone's marching in sync here insofar as "What to throw in the kitchen sink next" goes. And something.

*ball bounces oddly realistically*

Wow did you see THAT go by? Okay, I'm looking forward to this.

I think the reason you don't see a lot of things with physics is because the current physics engine is lacking in a lot of ways. I have played around with physics a bit myself (even managing to consistently crash an entire sim with some "tumbleweeds" I was working on for a western themed build... needless to say, my tumbleweeds project is on hold).

I'll expand on the advantages of Havoc 2 that I forsee...

- Collision handling

Right now, when curved surfaces collide with curved surfaces, especially if one is concave, it takes a lot of sim computing power to handle. Better collision handling should help just about EVERYTHING with physics and overall sim performance.

- >32 prims

This is a real limitation, especially for vehicles. Vehicles have the additional drawback of requiring that every AV that is to ride it count against this 32 prim count.

- Better vehicles

This is a byproduct of the above 2 features. Better collision handling, and the ability to build more complex objects should make for much better vehicles, in both form and function.

- Better joints

Joints are basically borked right now, and are pretty much useless except for the most trivial applications (although I do have a kewl looking skeleton swinging in the breeze on a noose, using a joint and physics).

- Ace

Hmmmmmm. Are there any of the above features that could be implemented alongside the introduction of Havok2? It might take the curse off a bit if we started using the capabilities of the the new engine right out of the gate...

I could be wrong, but I kinda think the lack of physics usage right now is due to the fact most people don't want a sim running at 3 fps because a couple landowners put a slightly scritped physics perpetual motion machine on their lawns. That or they don't want to listen to the clack and clanks of a horribly scripted elevator for the rest of eternity.

I'm sick and tired of the prim limit for vehicles, and have resorted to wearing the extra detail as clothing on one of my frozen legs while sitting.

Actually, I'd prefer baby steps. I'd rather they implement it with no feature changes and see how it affects things first. Because inevitably there will be teething trouble with existing features and content, and I'd like to see that addressed before they bombard us with fun new features full of fun new bugs.

I'm not *trying* to be negative, but given the incredibly odd nature of some of the bugs that even incremental patches have brought about, changing the havok engine is going to be no small change.



Offtopic a bit, but believe this, because Philip himself can verify it (since I crashed him a few times the other day), but the transition from 1.5 to 1.6 ended my ability to edit certain objects I built before 1.6, with the result being instant dead client. It's 100% of the time, 100% reproduceable, and my objects kill anyone who tries to pull up the edit properties. And that transition was just to a few cute new features!

Now imagine what kind of problems are going to come out of the woodwork when 1.7 comes around? Sure. There'll be general bugs. They'll get fixed in 1.7.1, 2 and 3 in the first week or so. But see, my bug only affects my ability to use my sim and do any work to my own project in SL. So no one cares, and I'm about as low down the priority list as it gets. Would you like to be unable to use SL at all because you're the only one having an 'unusual' problem, because there are 4000 other bugs in the queue (the current load for 1.6) that are more pressing for more people because they added a whole bunch of crap at the same time? I'd rather fewer new features, sort out the bugs it brings with it completely first. But then I would say that, I guess, cuz I can't use SL and not likely to be able to in the near future

I think people are wasting their votes on it because it's already in the planning pool (these are for features to go INTO the planning pool), and I think people don't understand what it means.

It'd probably help if LL told the population what Havok 2 will and won't do.

As far as I know there is NO guarantee that it will increase vehicle prim limits, increase amount of avs per sim, increase FPS or increase sim prim limits.

It certainly is not going to make every av have 'ragdoll physics'. That isn't going to happen.

You know, I thought it was already in the planning pool (actually, implementation pool from what I've read ove the months). The fact that the "Voting System Admin" (a Linden, presumably) has put this on the feature voting system makes me not so sure any more. Maybe they're looking for an excuse not to do it? Otherwise, why include it at all if it's already going to be in. It's a little confusing.

Thanks for the answers. So if I had to sum up the hopes for Havok 2, I guess I'd say vehicles and increased realism. I don't use vehicles, so that explains something. If they could make it efficient enough, I could see how physics could be used in the right way to improve a build or maybe a game. I've been enjoying Half-life 2, that's for sure. I just hope no one figures out a way to make physics-enabled hoochie hair

You'll probably not be buying my new 'realistic flowing jointed hairpieces' then? only 150 physical, cut, hollowed and twisted torii! And they blow in the wind!

They have an additional ubercool feature tho: They cause everyone around you to go in slow motion, giving them all plenty of time to marvel at your incredible new hairstyle!

I'm in favor of whatever it takes to make border crossing not suck, and I voted yes even though they say it'll be in 1.7, because software deadlines have a way of turning into DIRTY DIRTY LIES.