How to showcase your virtual goods on Developed Property

Thread moved . .tired of arguing.

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The checkmark, as I recall, is marked 'transfer'. The fact it's also marked resell is a stupid mistake on LL's part.

It was Resell/Give Away...

It is the permission that allows you to transfer items. Unfortunatley it's also tied to the ability to sell items.

Now if someone made something they wished as a freebie for people to share, there is no way to give it to you, and allow you to give it to others without also giving you the ability to put a price on it and sell it.

This is one of the reasons fewer and fewer people are making freebie items for new players.
It is also the reason for the erosion of the sharing nature that used to abound in Second Life.

If Resell and Give Away had a parting and were an either/or option, there may have been a superhottub 2.0. When the hand that feeds is bitten one too many times, it is withdrawn.

My personal ethical compass is pointed in the direction 'if you didn't make it, don't sell it without permission' -- others, of course, may vary.

Siggy.

when an item is not copyable but is transferable, the creator is selling one time licenses. these licences can be transfered. people can attach a price tag to that transfer. selling these items is legitimate.

if copyable is on, but transfer is off, the creator is selling a license that is not transferable. the item cannot be resold but the license for that information is for multiple uses. unfortunately this is a great sytem for clothing, attachments and vehicles, it doesn't work well for furniture or buildings.

LL needs to create a check box that allows single use non transferable license. if enough people in the community want this added feature, petition LL. suggesting that any player reselling items is doing something unethical is underhanded and wrong, in my opinion. if i buy something, then stop using it, it is well within my rights to resell it since the game mechanics allow me to do so.

i think if the trend is as siggy says, that players are stopping to make things, then that will certainly lead to the added features. i don't think this is an ethical conundrum, it's a matter of game mechanics.

Agree, but a house or piece of furniture RL is something I'm likely to resell if I happen to get a new one. The difference is that in SL, there is little loss of value due to age. I like petitioning to allow no copy/no transfer, but I don't think there's any ethical imperitive to do so.

I was hanging out with the land barons last night and they gave me this tip, I tried this and I sold land in 10 minutes last night :

Buying land close to some established player who is running a business is always a guaranteed sale. If they are online, checkout what they sell, and say something like "ohh, widgets.. hmm, I could make those". I sold the land at $30 a meter!!

I create urban gardens, fountains, waterfalls and wilderness areas (plants & animals) on land for peoople who are selling their land and would like it to look nice.

I was asked to do this by someone selling land and it has worked out nicely for me because people see the trees and flowers that I sell and frequently buy them and also visit my nursery.

In addition, sometimes they ask for the landscaping to go with the land and then the person selling the land buys them from me.

It's sort of a win/win because the neighbors are next to something unobtrusive and natural. The land attracts people because it looks that way and the parcels seem to sell faster for the seller. I get exposure for my plants, trees & animals as well as having temporary land to have fun on (because I love doing this).

Rose

Nothing is wrong with reselling an item you have no use for anymore in my opinion.. I absolutely respect the right of first sale... I don't respect the right of second,third, forth,fifth, ad-infinatum sale.

I'm also not accusing anyone of being unethical - I'm stating what MY ethics are, and acknowledging that other people may see it different.. world of difference.

Still scenario you're missing is that of the creative commons.

Pick up say.... a free hottub with open permissions so you can play with it and pass it around... take those perms off and jack the price up to 4-500 bucks.. You can because the permissions allow you to --- should you? It comes down to trust and respect. The creator must trust you, will you respect them?

When people (for instance Juro with his freebie cabin) make things so newbs can see what can be done without being sold up the river - it becomes rather disheartening to see people getting sold up the river by the very items you created to prevent this. I know - I've been there. You trust, you hope for respect -- if respect doesn't follow, there is a lack of trust.
Made worse when blessed irony means you're fueling the problem you hoped to solve.

So, I wouldn't put it as Blaze put it - as 'harping'.. It's certainly very frustrating. And is the primary reason why there is a harsh comparison between the amount of sharing going on when I started (1.0) and now.

Siggy.

i was just thinking what could be a work around this problem for players like yourself or juro -

what if you sold the item through a vendor that compiled a list of players it gave it it and always checked against that list to make sure it didn't give the item more than once to any given player? this would allow you to give out freebies in the manner you had wanted to even without that missing check box.

That might work, but I'd really like to see LL separate out the ability to sell something from being able to transfer it.

I don't mind if someone wants to give a friend (or whomever) one of the freebies, but I have an issue with someone who takes a freebie and marks it up for sale to make a profit for themselves. This also applies to 'enhancing' property for sale.

I'm fully aware, however, that *technically* blaze and others are within thier right to resell it, as that's how I set permissions: to allow transfers.

All I really want to do with my freebies is help out those who don't have alot of money or inclination to spend alot on a build with something nice.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who take advantage of the spirit of the free builds for personal gain. I've even added a line in the notetcard that specifically asks the objects *not* be resold, but some folks just ignore it.

If LL can't get a fix in for this, I'll probably just follow Siggy's lead and remove my freebies for now.

I don't see how that's a solution.... in order for the creative commons to work you need to be able to produce derivative works and re-distribute. that means copy/modify/transfer.

if I give you an item with this enabled you are free to do as you please -- even directly slap a price of 500 on it, take away modify/copy and resell...

If I take away transfer - you can't give it away.. but then again you also lose the ability to redistribute a derivative work -- thus busting a huge hole in the whole point of the commons.

Either way I don't see how a vendor will solve what is a people problem. The system as it stands doesn't support the commons - and the communtiy in general has shown 1) very little respect for such a project and 2) very little support for such a project.

When permissions change or the communtity changes I may try again. For now SL simply doesn't have the tools.

Siggy.

juro, using said vendor any given player could still miss use your generosity but only once.

siggy, even if linden added a new flag, you wouldn't be using it. what you want to realize is difficult in any medium. scripts have that problem in game as well and in rl every invention has no name knock offs. no passive interface system can support what you want. what you would need is for a modable no copy/no transfer object that the player makes a derivative work of. then they have it checked with you to insure it is "derivative enough" for you to release the flags.

i think that the problem is magnified. i don't know what your sales records look like but i'm hopeful for every 1 player out there selling freebies, there's hundreds not doing it.

someone i know in world made from scratch a derivative work on another persons object. it was made entirely from skratch and had double the number of prims. apparantly this was not good enough initially for the original creator and this person had a really hard time. derivative works is a tricky situation to make everyone happy.

Quote: "I visit her nursery all the time, but I never get my diaper changed. >.< "

That's only because I haven't added the giant fire hose or the industrial strength nappie pail as nursery accessories yet.

I think your totally missing what I'm saying.. the point of the creative commons IS to create derivatives.. NOT to prevent it.. to prevent people from recreating the wheel, but advance, innovate and evolve.

There is no 'derivative enough' -- someone takes something and sees it could work better, they change, redistribute - someone wants to make a similar item - they modify, redistribute..

SL example: Mash Mandala got a hottub, took it apart to see how it worked, added to it and created his sauna - a derivative work he is able to do with as he pleased...

Also I didn't say a new flag - I suggested one possible alternative was the splitting of an exsting flag.

As for no-name knock offs -- fail to see the relevance to this... 1. anyone making a completely new object based on an existing one is creating work for themselves, more power to them, they can as they please.

.2 Remaking an existing free or $1 object.. how can you make it even cheaper? pay someone to take it off you?


Funny thing is all these problems lie solely within the realms of items made to give away - I've never encountered even a fraction of the problems with any of my commercial ideas/products.
Essentially it's simply too hard to be philanthropic and altruistic - so some people (like myself) just stopped trying.


Siggy.

Hm, interesting - I didn't know the sauna was a derivative of the hot tub! I have one of each

I think the question is more one of "how different is it..."

For example, if I took one of your hot tubs and retextured the outside, I wouldn't think of selling it.

If I took the buttons, water and script out, reshaped the water and inserted the buttons and script into a completely different shaped tub (I'm in the middle of doing that now), would I be able to sell it then? Should I?

If I took one button, a portion of the script, and placed them inside a highly crafted and textured enclosure with lying down animations etc. I am infering from you that is just fine to resell!

I'd like some guidelines on what changes would be considered "worthy" enough by the general population for a free work to be sellable in its own right.

what i am saying is that there is no mechanical way to govern that people are using your products in the method that you intended (ie: personal use or to make derivative works, and not for marked up resale) without including a human arbitrator over releasing flags to derivative work or an enlightened society where people follow the terms of ownership that come with purchasing your 1$ tub.

as for the current circumstances (which we must live with until LL adds a new flag that seperates transfer and resell),
i agree that there are people who are taking advantage of your generosity. my question is, do you want to stop making for a very small minority of minors in the system, or a very big majority of players who appreciate all the learning tools you are providing with your gnu work? i would argue that your intentions for your work are still being realized despite some abuse.

edit: by "you" i mean people who are having these problems, not you, siggy, specifically.

There is a point that many have reached, some (myself) sooner than others, where the verbal abuse, neg ratings, arguments, and general laisse faire attitudes wear you down to the point where it's no longer fun. Time is the only thing that I don't like wasting - I don't have enough of it. And you get to a point where investing the time into something worthwhile simply isn't worth the inevitable hassle and harrassment..

That negative minority is a pain in the arse - much like those 100 or so people who protest in Vegas from time to time, saying that 'God Hates Gays' make it hard for the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of good Christians that walk the same streets that day.

I've said many times, and it is true, I never received a neg rating until started making free items for new players.. I have never to this day received harrasment or negativity for anything I've done and sold commercially.


Re - other stuff not quoted, Indeed, as I stated earlier (I think in this thread) it is primarily a people problem.. mainly motivated by a 'I can therefore I will' that is prevelant in online society.. I still think that some tool showing the intent would be welcome to help nudge things along.

All in all I think that the World as we know it now is very different from the World when we joined - the huge push towards mass capitalism has put an undercurrent of 'make money no matter what' into the mix, and until that settles somewhat I can see most altruistic projects eventually shutting down out of sheer frustration.

Siggy.

Want to see - look at the creator on most the scripts.. last I looked you will still see my name.

If you want to learn more about derivative works, look up one of the many excellent copyright resources on the web.. you'll be suprised at what it says about derivate works..

In short, the general populations opinion doesn't matter - the only one that does matter is the creator.
With Linden Lab handing over IP rights to the creators (shortly after I joined) this is a very relavent matter..

In Mashs case he IMMed me with lots of questions when he first embarked on the sauna project, and did so with my blessings, it was the embodiment of what I was trying to promote... learning, deriving, inventing.

I can only comment on this case as I created this.
I
Everyone knows how much time they invested into a project, and how much work they have put in.. if you honestly in your heart beleive you have invested time and effort into making / changing something derived from that, resell it with my blessings.

Noone in their heart can believe that slapping a coat of paint constitutes this.

If you take the time to change it's shape, or add features, in some way innovate it, make new things from parts of it... then I give you express permission to do with it as you please.

Siggy.

I'll send you a copy when I'm done - and maybe we can sit in it together and kick back

Not a problem, I look forward to it!

Maybe I can be sufficiently motivated to do hottub 1.2 by then. If you need any help feel free to send me an IM if you get stuck anywhere.. that was made a long time ago (by SL standards anyways - the day 1.3 came out) - I'm sure the code could use a good cleanup.

Siggy.