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Winner of MoveOn Social Security Animation

Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
05-12-2005 20:38
"If it ain't broke, don't privatize it!"
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,989
05-12-2005 21:01
http://www.factcheck.org/article303.html

And now we have some balance. :) Well, sortof.
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BTW

WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
05-12-2005 22:04
Yes, yes, yes. Finally, someone takes a look at the seldom-mentioned cap on taxed earnings for social security.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
05-12-2005 22:09
From: Garoad Kuroda
http://www.factcheck.org/article303.html

And now we have some balance. :) Well, sortof.


Only thing is - factcheck.org is referring to a different MoveOn Ad in that analysis. Losing the cap on Social Security seems like a fair plan to shore it up to me.

Regardless, here's MoveOn's Rebuttal to factcheck.org:

Tom Matzzie
Washington Director
Brooks Jackson
Director, Annenberg Political Fact Check
Annenberg Public Policy Center
320 National Press Building
Washington DC 20045

Dear Mr. Jackson:

We strongly object to your claim that MoveOn.org was inaccurate in saying that
President Bush's privatization plan would cut Social Security benefits. Social Security
was designed to provide a retirement benefit that bears some relationship to workers'
wage income during their working career. As wages rise, Social Security benefits have
always risen along with them. This was done informally prior to 1974 (Congress raised
benefit levels every few years) and has been done with formal wage indexation since
1974.

President Bush's plan cuts benefits compared to what workers would receive under
current law. This implies very substantial reductions over time. In our ad, we mentioned
the 46% cut in benefits that retirees would suffer at the end of the Social Security
Trustees' projection period. To take another example, according to the Trustees
projections, workers retiring forty years after the Bush plan is put in place would see a
benefit cut of 36 percent compared to currently scheduled levels. Using the
Congressional Budget Office projections, the Bush plan implies cuts of 41 percent for
such a worker.

In referring to a cut against scheduled benefit levels, MoveOn was using the standard
framing for the whole debate. There would be no Social Security shortfall whatsoever, if
the goal was simply to provide the current benefit level. President Bush and proponents
of privatization have consistently used the scheduled benefit as their benchmark when
they have warned of benefit cuts, if no changes are made. This statement is not true if a
benefit cut means a cut against current benefit levels - it only could be true if they are
referring to scheduled future benefits. In this sense, MoveOn.org has referred to benefit
"cuts" in exactly the same way as the president. If Fact Check only considers a cut as a
reduction against current benefit levels, then it should correct the president and other
proponents of privatization who routinely warn of benefit cuts.

In fact, this is the same way that Fact Check itself has referred to benefit cuts. Towards
the end of its release criticizing our ad, the release asserts:
"Furthermore, current law will force an actual cut in benefits eventually, under official
projections. The Social Security trustees estimate that under current law, without a tax
increase, all benefits would have to be cut 27% when the Social Security Trust Fund is
exhausted in the year 2042, and would continue to be cut each year thereafter. The
Congressional Budget Office has a more optimistic projection, predicting that the trust
fund wouldn't be exhausted until 2052--ten years later--and that benefits would have to be
cut only 22% at first."

Since the longstanding debate on Social Security has proceeded from the standpoint that
not paying currently scheduled benefits is a "cut," and that is the framing that both sides
in the debate have adopted, and FactCheck itself finds it difficult to avoid this framing, I
suggest that you adopt the standard framing. At the very least, you should not accuse an
organization that uses the standard framing of being misleading or inaccurate.

Sincerely,

Tom Matzzie
Washington Director
MoveOn.org
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
05-12-2005 22:21
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
Yes, yes, yes. Finally, someone takes a look at the seldom-mentioned cap on taxed earnings for social security.

~Ulrika~

I was kind of shocked to learn that as well. Why should there be a cap at all?
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Lianne Marten
Cheese Baron
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 2,192
05-12-2005 22:27
Wow that was a good one. I looked at a few of them when they were doing the voting, but none of the ones I saw were nearly as good as this :D
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Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
05-13-2005 03:41
From: someone
Losing the cap on Social Security seems like a fair plan to shore it up to me.

No thank you.

I look forward to the end of the year when I can stop paying into Social Security.

Maybe I should become a hardcore conservative.

Let them eat cake!
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Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
Lianne Marten
Cheese Baron
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 2,192
05-13-2005 10:28
No, the cap that makes it so only income up to $90,000 is taxed... not the age cap :)
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,989
05-13-2005 16:01
From: Travis Lambert
Only thing is - factcheck.org is referring to a different MoveOn Ad in that analysis. Losing the cap on Social Security seems like a fair plan to shore it up to me.


I know...I'm just pointing out that in general MoveOn is a steaming pile of shit that spreads disinformation and propaganda to forward their own agenda. I "balanced" this thread, not their ad. :cool:

If you took away the cap on social security, and higher income earners paid more into the system--shouldn't they expect ALOT more back when they retire? If not, and since they won't get more back, it's simply a tax on them to move funds to lower income earners. Which is...an option, but an option that is arguably not such a great one. It's a pretty good scheme though, making people pay more into social security while giving them nothing back in return, and calling it a "tweak" of the system.

Basically it's saying you want to tax high income earners to fix social security--discussing this would warp the thread into one of those "high taxes hurt the economy" type threads though. But if that's what they mean, and it certainly sounds like that to me, they should SAY that and stop trying to hide it behind clever policy changes.

Edit: Is that the "rebuttal" that Factcheck re-rebutted? I'm not in a self-loathing enough mood to read one of MoveOn's piles of crap.
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BTW

WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
05-13-2005 16:04
From: someone
No, the cap that makes it so only income up to $90,000 is taxed... not the age cap

I know. I hit the 90k mark a little over halfway through the year. I am very happy at the end of the year when I am not having to pay. :)
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Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
05-13-2005 16:06
I want to be your house-bitch, Neehai... I mean, sugar-daddie. ;)
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