Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Legally binding?

Harald Nomad
Villager
Join date: 28 May 2003
Posts: 123
12-30-2003 17:20
"Before submitting a bid, please remember that you automatically enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item from the seller if you win the auction."

Can anyone explain me where in the U.S. lawbooks it says that a game-based auction for playmoney has real life legal consequences?

Besides, now that Europeans are allowed in SecondLife, any such obligation would not work for them because of local laws. In any case, signed or unsigned, laws in most modern countries allow for a 8 day period (or longer) in which the buyer can reconsider his purchase or purchase intentions.

So what is the above quoted text saying?
si Money
The nice demon.
Join date: 21 May 2003
Posts: 477
Re: Legally binding?
12-30-2003 17:36
From: someone
Originally posted by Harald Nomad
"Before submitting a bid, please remember that you automatically enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item from the seller if you win the auction."

Can anyone explain me where in the U.S. lawbooks it says that a game-based auction for playmoney has real life legal consequences?

Besides, now that Europeans are allowed in SecondLife, any such obligation would not work for them because of local laws. In any case, signed or unsigned, laws in most modern countries allow for a 8 day period (or longer) in which the buyer can reconsider his purchase or purchase intentions.

So what is the above quoted text saying?


Standard legalese that all US companies use.

It's in no way legally binding, and has never held up in court, even in the US.
_____________________
Like a soul without a mind
In a body without a heart
I'm missing every part

-- Progress --
Catherine Omega: Yes, but lots of stuff isn't listed. "Making UI harder to use than ever" and "removing all the necessary status icons" things.... there's nothing like that in the release notes. :)
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
12-30-2003 17:37
I'd imagine it's legally binding because real-world money is being used. It could probalby be argued in a US court of law that because it was an auction, the user understood that it was legally binding... just like on eBay.

And as for linden dollars, well, it's automatically deducted from your account, so you don't have to worry about it.

LF
_____________________
----
http://www.lordfly.com/
http://www.twitter.com/lordfly
http://www.plurk.com/lordfly
si Money
The nice demon.
Join date: 21 May 2003
Posts: 477
12-30-2003 17:39
From: someone
Originally posted by Lordfly Digeridoo
I'd imagine it's legally binding because real-world money is being used. It could probalby be argued in a US court of law that because it was an auction, the user understood that it was legally binding... just like on eBay.

And as for linden dollars, well, it's automatically deducted from your account, so you don't have to worry about it.

LF


Ebay has failed to uphold this legally for years now. If you're ever defrauded on ebay, you're basically screwed. There's nothing they can do about it.
_____________________
Like a soul without a mind
In a body without a heart
I'm missing every part

-- Progress --
Catherine Omega: Yes, but lots of stuff isn't listed. "Making UI harder to use than ever" and "removing all the necessary status icons" things.... there's nothing like that in the release notes. :)
Ryen Jade
This is a takeover!
Join date: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,329
12-30-2003 17:56
LMAO Who is betting 125USD$ for the LL shirt?!
David Cartier
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,018
Re: Re: Legally binding?
12-30-2003 19:24
Auctions have their own laws and standards that are not always covered by existing consumer protection laws. This is mainly because auctions by their nature exist to transfer ownership in a very timely manner and the buyers are presumed to have examined the items before bidding. Internet auctioneering has somewhat muddled things but the basic rules generally hold true.
If I go to an auction and bid on an item and win the bidding, so long as the item was accurately described and is in the same condition it was in during the preview (you'd be amazed how much stuff gets dropped) at which time I am expected to have made a determination of the condition, I am legally bound to pay for it under the laws regulating auctions in most US states. Most - if not all - auctioneers will cut you some slack and reoffer the item if you were bidding on the wrong item or got confused during the bidding - it's usually a whole lot easier - but legally they don't always have to.
From: someone
Originally posted by si Money
Standard legalese that all US companies use.

It's in no way legally binding, and has never held up in court, even in the US.
Huns Valen
Don't PM me here.
Join date: 3 May 2003
Posts: 2,749
12-30-2003 20:38
Disclaimer: I am basing this post on what I learned in a single semester of business law in college. I am not a lawyer.

According to the Uniform Commerce Codes (which apply in the U.S. excluding Louisiana) the seller can sue the buyer if the seller places his/her/themself at a disadvantage because of the assumption of a finalized auction. It works the same way with pledging a donation to a nonprofit organization. Say you pledge to donate one million dollars to PBS, and on the strength of that, they upgrade their video lab equipment. Then you pull out of the donation. They have grounds to sue you. For the same reason, a person who pulls out of a finalized auction "sale" or whatever it's called, may cause damages to the auctioner, who could have sold the item to someone else.

Due to the fact that an item put up for auction in SL can easily be re-auctioned if the winning bidder pulled out, and due to the fact that these auctions are for things that do not have incredibly high real-life value, it would probably be difficult to prove to a judge that you'd suffered enough damages to make it worth the court's time to hold civil proceedings.
Dusty Rhodes
sick up and fed
Join date: 3 Aug 2003
Posts: 147
12-31-2003 06:51
From: someone
Originally posted by Huns Valen
Say you pledge to donate one million dollars to PBS, and on the strength of that, they upgrade their video lab equipment. Then you pull out of the donation. They have grounds to sue you.


Not only that, but "Elmo knows where you live!" :)
Harald Nomad
Villager
Join date: 28 May 2003
Posts: 123
01-07-2004 15:02
From: someone
Originally posted by Huns Valen
Disclaimer: I am basing this post on what I learned in a single semester of business law in college. I am not a lawyer.

Then you pull out of the donation. They have grounds to sue you. For the same reason, a person who pulls out of a finalized auction "sale" or whatever it's called, may cause damages to the auctioner, who could have sold the item to someone else.


Even in the U.S., courts have ruled differently. If the auctioneer or beneficiary of a donation turns out to have willingly and knowingly withheld information, details, blahblahblah, or in case the auctioneer or beneficiary of a donation knowingly deals with minors without consulting the parents/legal guardians, or if the auctioneer or beneficiary of a donation is dealing with people of whom they can assume they are not in a mental capacity to understand the legal and/or financial implications/liabilities resulting from such action.

Now getting back to my original point: an auction in a virtual world, where painted air is auctioned for playmoney (lindendollars), a player has every right in all states of the U.S. of A. to assume that "legally binding contracts" are to be considered within the reach of the game itself. Iow, we're just playing lawyer here. Much like when kids play doctor, no mother will ever hold the neighboring kid responsible for her kid not being cured of the flu.

So Lindens "play" auction house, confirmed by their usage of the term "winning" an auction, and confirmed by the fact that inspite of statements all over the website, they allow minors to enter and be part of each and every aspect of SecondLife.

Personally I have witnessed a piece of land offered for sale to a resident, who was led to believe he had "won" the land in a lottery. Where does the game end and real life liabilities come in? What's next? Do we get a Linden Street where we can buy and sell virtual shares with real life legally binding contracts? I go to real life jail because I sold my playshares when I knew one player shared a virtual bed with another player?
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
01-07-2004 15:08
Legally binding or not you can take it to mean "don't be an ass and bid on land you don't intend to buy just to drive the price up" :D
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Gwydeon Nomad
Registered User
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 480
01-07-2004 15:37
Just because real money is not being used in some of the auctions to my knowledge does not remove the fact that these bids are leagly binding.... thow this shouldnt be an issue, just don't bid if you don't intend on paying and you never have to worry about it :D