What to do about IP enforcement?

Was going to post this in another thread but thought better of it. Someone brought up the thought that SL users ought to form a group or something that would work to enforce people's in-game IP rights without violating the TOS.

What the TOS has to say about IP rights:



I Am Not A Lawyer (TM) but I'm fairly sure this means that LL doesn't have to do anything, and instances where people say that they've done something is an indication that they're being generous. I'm not sure if "claims" refers only to legal, RL court actions or if it applies to any and all complaints (abuse reports, etc). Do we have any real life lawyers out there (better yet, a Linden) who can clear this up?

I do agree that *something* ought to be done. I think a good first step would be to have a database somewhat similar to that of the U.S. Patent and Trademark office, where, if someone lists something in the database and then finds that someone else has ripped of their work, they have something concrete to point to and conclusively say "that's my design, I made it first, here's the proof." I took the liberty of grabbing the domain name and webspace for slip.secondlifesites.com, SLIP standing for "the Second Life Intelectual Property Registry" (I'm open to suggestions for a better acronym. ^_^). I don't yet know whether I'll actualy have the time to run this, but the basic premise is that for a modest fee (about L$100 per listing), I would take documentation (screenshots, written descriptions, object keys, etc) from the creator, check it against the database (which also ought to be publicly searchable) for copycat items, see if it qualifies for listing (I wouldn't list overly generic items (plywood cubes, sit scripts, etc) or items that are based on other people's real world IP (i.e.: avatars of movie/book/video game characters, etc)) and then post it to the archive.

However, I know this isn't enough...none of this will actualy stop people from ripping off other's work (although it would be helpfull in preventing acedental situations like using someone's established brand name), nor will it be able to do anything by itself when it comes to stopping the sale of stolen goods.

So...what can you do? One can put verbal and social pressure on the offender (neg rates, forum posts, asking the person to stop) but none of this is guaranteed to solve the actual problem: your stolen stuff is being sold in-world. Abuse is against TOS, abuse-reporting isn't guaranteed to work as far as we know, and while a RL lawsuit would probably get them to stop, its more hastle than the average SL residant is willing to go through. My only other idea would be to use the DMCA notification process (http://secondlife.com/dmca.php) under which LL *would* be oblidged to act.

Ideas?

*bump*

Well, the dcma only really applies to copyrighted work...so I'm not sure you coupld apply it in-game. Also, I think the DMCA guys need hobbies and should be discouraged from spending too much time on the job. They're kind of like grave diggers or taxmen - their function, to many, is distasteful, no matter how needful it is.

Not that I disagree with you in principle.

Copyright is implicit. You don't need to declare "I own this" or register anything to retain copyright. You must do so for a registered trademark, but actual copyright requires no publication. For example, I couldn't break into your house and steal your manuscript and publish it as my own, even if you hadn't published it yet.

If I create something, yes, even if I do it online, I own the rights to it. This applies to SL as well.

Complicated copyright laws may be elaborate to cover a plethora of legal situations, but a thing is: if they're difficult to explain in everyday English, then a lot of people won't bother to get legally aware because it confuses the heck out of them. Legal jargon is no excuse for being a nice person and not being a "Bangkok copycat artist". Term "artist", in that preceeding sentence, used VERY loosely.

There are flipsides to digital technology: on one hand, copy-and-paste makes it easy to share one's work, but it can be unpleasant if your art is being passed around without your consent. Within the system of SL, there are certain methods of identification as you pointed out, Elle.

Not to mention the human element: you are more likely to trust someone you know and who has been around and benefited the community than a stranger who cries "Thief!" I speculate that Lindens, being human beings (for the most part ), do keep this in mind. Build bridges, not burn 'em!

I am for awareness of a situation where someone's work is being ripped off, so that each person may form his/her/it own opinion. It is also important to gather all sides of the story and compare these to whatever records exist, so that it's not a hostile, redundant splonking match. Stuff like that happens anyway, but what can ya do? There may also be the funny psychological "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" effect when people, who bought the copied stuff, are interested in seeking out the "real deal" -- even if it IS priced higher. There's something not logical but undeniably magical about having the genuine article... to some people, anyway.

Laws seem to ultimately deal with the consequences, not just the actions.

But ya know... sometimes guilt is its own punishment... a quiet, isolated, silent pain that bleeds from within.

Yes, *but* without documentation of some sort, it's hard to proove that the copyright was yours to begin with. This is why writers who are paranoid about someone stealing their manuscript as it goes through the editorial process, etc, are advised to take a copy of their manuscript, sign it, seal it in an envelope and mail it to themselves. They then have a tangable record, processed and dated by a verifiable authority (the post office) that can be brought foward as proof in court should the need arise. If you were to steal a manuscript from me and publish it, and I hadn't taken any such step, I wouldn't have a case to file charges against you: it would only be your word against mine.

I would guess that, given enough time and effort, the Lindens can dig through their database and find out what was created when, and by who.

Thus being an official record.

LF

Honestly, I wouldn't put too much worry in this statement.

After reading it a couple times, it seems like Linden Lab is basically asserting the "we're not responsible for content" clause. Other statements from LL have said that they will assist people in filing DMCA complaints, but as this legal mumbo jumbo reads, they're not responsible for seeking out problems and fixing the problems themselves.

it would get real messy (IP issues) real fast in a place like SL which is a constant bubbling fount of creation, collaboration, idea generation, etc. In many cases, determining "first use" would be very tough, and only tougher as the population gets bigger -- tough to investigate and tough to get people to agree. I hate to see someone getting ripped off by copy-ists, but I'd hate even more to see SL innovation turn into acrimony because people lay claim to certain build techniques.

look at all the mess happening in software with stupid patents. It's going to start strangling software innovation if something isn't done about it.

I really wish people wouldn't use the term "Intellectual Property". There's no such beast, and it's not property. Despite what the overpaid lawyers and content providers would like us to believe.

gotta disagree with you here, Cross, but boy this could explode into a huge philosophical discussion. I may not be for broad IP legal structures, but there *is* such a thing as non-physical property (IMNSHO). I should not be able to sell a false iPod in a box marked "Apple" with the apple logo. Those "brands" should be owned by the company.

I may hate software patents with a passion, but I sure don't believe you should be able to outright copy and sell someone's code unless they give you the rights to do so. That doesn't mean you should be able to claim things like one-click shopping or assigning a variable as patentable!

I am the first to admit that there are huge grey areas here that cause problems. Is duchamp's mona-lisa-with-a-mustache plagarism? is it art? is it theft? is it originality?

Anyway, it's all an attempted balance between fostering innovation incentives and constructive group dynamics (as well as financial feasibility of enforcement). Sometimes legal protections are useful, other times social pressure has much more impact.

Yeah. Would be great if we knew that they could do that for every stolen item complaint. Unfortunately, we don't know.

I've been wondering how to handle scripts, as I don't want to have all the software-pattent idiocy either.

I'm tempted to avoid the whole idea of a patented "process" alltogeather and treat scripts like books and other published works, in regard to their copyright. You can't put a copyright on "animation overides", but you can put one on a particular animation override script that you wrote. Since scripts are often going to end up similar to each other (there's a set number of LSL functions after all) there would have to be a way to ID a script as unique (may include but isn't nessicarily limited to creator tags, UUID keys and maybe a "call number" (think Library of Congress).

There's also the question of what to do with source code, particaurly closed source. Obviosuly, that can't be posted publicly, and I know that some creators would be wary of sharing their code with *anyone*. But a copy might be needed to check a suspected stolen script against.

Well, a good start would be:

1) Have anyone who's stealing other people's work be ejected and banned from being a mentor & instructor.

2) Having a program clean out the asset server, deleting any copies that were made by using an exploit.

Count me in on any user based enforcement. Ima tiger when it comes to this stuff

-aimee

I change my answer. Give Aimee Linden god powers.

All these problems would go away

I am simply blown away after reading this thread in it's entirety.

I really don't think you have any legal right to anything you create that exists solely as an artifact on a pay to play game...although imported art might be different.

And Cathrine O, while you certainly have a postcount that implies you know the ins and outs of second life (meaning I probably shouldn't sass you , you do have to register the copyrights you hold to have any practical chance of defending them. Without some overwhelming proof that someone else created the work, you're going to be out of luck contesting the rights of the first registrant...

Likewise, and you see this often online, content isn't copyrighted just by adding the copyright sigil or saying so at the bottom of a page.

As far as your example goes, yes, I very well could steal a manuscript and publish it - I would simply have to avoid detection. You're right in principle, of course, but in practicallity the legal system considers the first person to associate a work with their name the author - once someone's published it, or registered copyright, the burden is on the claiment to prove they and not the stated author wrote it...

In the United States, copyright legaly exists for a work the moment it comes into being. But you are right that it's nearly impossible to back up your claim to the copyright without having something to proove it.

Elle, think you might need to go back to the copyright website and do some more research with the library of congress as well. Copyright is not as simple as you think and if it is not registered within 30 days of creation only limited legalities apply.

Trust me I had to go through all of this when creating the online webstore my partner and I have called SLVisions. Once obtaining a Trademark License agreement with SL the Copyright aspects began along with a lot of trivial whinning from people that do not know the law of Copyright.

So please before spouting fringing data go read the data and have the RL Pamphlets and associated information and regulations sent to you and read. Believe me you will be busy for a good 2 months reading because if your not a lawyer understanding it will take one to clear things up and yes I did get a business lawyer to sit down and go over it with me for almost two weeks.

Anyway I digress for now.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I accept.

*SMITE PEOPLE RANDOMLY*

BWA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

SW...is the day of creation for this purpose the day you start, or the day you finish? IE, say it takes you a year to write a novel....

I'll check...I admit that most of my knowledge comes from reading the legal advice collumns of Writers Digest. I've read the official stuff before but definatly need to brush up.