Not sure where this should be... Banned PPL?

Hey... now i don't like the drama and such like.. but i just noticed in Auctions that Paris Parks has just bought land...

Wasn't she banned after the terraforming.. personally i have nothing against the girl.. i was just wondering what the hell was going on.. can you come back after being banned??

I'm so confuzzled please forgive my ignorance...

Over in SLUniverse, Paris plead her case.

Essentially, it went like this:

Paris and another person (we'll call her "Lady Z" shared an account. Apparently Paris doesn't have a CC, but Lady Z does.

Lady Z created an alt-account to be used for griefing. (Neg rating, etc). Paris used this account, but she and Lady Z have the password.

According to Paris's account, she was at home, asleep in bed when the griefing took place. So it couldn't have been Paris that did it. It must have been Lady Z.

So we're all unfairly accusing Paris of a crime she didn't commit. In the meantime, she lost her property (it was auctioned off) and her account was suspended during the investigation.

Which makes me wonder: Paris said that LL sold her land. Is this fair? Should she receive the auction proceeds? I say she should, even if she was terminated with good cause.

Which makes me wonder: Paris said that LL sold her land. Is this fair? Should she receive the auction proceeds? I say she should, even if she was terminated with good cause.


According to the new TOS released last week, no user has any rights to confiscated land and/or profits from the sale of said land.

So far all we have heard is Paris, nothing from the "Lady Z". I couldnt base my thoughts on any of this based on one persons statements.

OK.. well i know who lady Z is.. and is she now banned.. if paris is back.. i'm so confused about everything.. not that it REALLY matter eithers way to myself.

I guess i really should read the TOS... huh

Some clarification. When an account has been terminated due to someone violating the Terms of Service or Community Standards the following happens:

- their account is closed, and they no longer have access to Second Life or their SL assets including L$ and land
- their land is put up for auction in US$. From the proceeds we deduct anything owed to LL, and a fee to cover time in conducting the resale. Anything remaining is sent, in US$, to the owner of the account.

Once an account has been terminated, the owner is no longer eligible to participate in the auctions, and an attempt to do so will just mean the auction is invalid and we'll re-auction the parcels.

For reference, see the Terms of Service sections 3.7 and 7.1, and the Auction FAQ, first question.

Thanks.. and robin i read your other thread... as i'm sure your aware i wasn't aiming any nastiness at anyone.. was just pondering

I avoid the drama nowadays... sooooooooo much easier

Why are people allowed to post to the forums if they are banned from SL?

I'm assuming they aren't banned from SLuniverse if they are banned from SL... *sigh* why do ppl do things to get banned.. can't we all just live like one big happy freaky family

sluniverse not run by the lindens.
I'm asking, if they are banned from secondlife, why can they post on these forums which are run by the lindens.

Camille, anyone who has been banned from Second Life is also banned from these forums. Occasionally there's a short lag between when they leave SL and when they leave the forum, but for the most part it doesn't happen.

What Robin just said makes me very uncomfortable indeed.

Given that people have been banned from Second Life for very questionable reasons, at the sole discretion of one or another of the Lindens and seemingly inconsistently, with absolutely no method for appeal or recourse, the fact they can take your Lindens is somewhat disturbing.

This is real money. I couldnt give a toss what the ToS says about it having no real world value - thats not true and it's just a legalese copout which would prolly not stand up in court anyway.

So if I have over 1000 USD in my account when you decide I should be banned, thats my 'fine' is it? Compared to somone else who might get fined the 10 dollars they have in theirs?

Yeah. That seems fair. Remind me to go change up my money and start playing SL a WHOLE different way, lest I piss off some Linden or other.

And frankly, given these circumstances, I think, like Paris has inferred, I would take action against LL. You CANNOT have this kind of kangaroo court rulings with that kind of penalty. Thats just insane.

Let's make a distinction between being suspended and being banned.

When someone is removed from SL for a few days or even a week, they are suspended. Suspensions are not 'done at the sole discretion of one or the other Lindens'. Suspensions, and the length of a suspension, are decided by one of two individuals, based on very specific criteria attached to 1) the behaviors called out in the Community Standards as being unacceptable, and 2) the number of times the individual has been found 'guilty' of this behavior. No one is suspended based on hearsay -- all abuse reports are investigated and decisions made according to what can be proved. Nothing happens to a Resident's assets in the case of a suspension. We do not confiscate land or Linden currency.

When someone is banned, or permanently removed from SL, the person at Linden Lab who decides is me. Only me. I make that decision based on the record of the individual and the severity of the behavior. In actual fact, very few people have been permanently banned. Those who have been were guilty of constant harassment of other people, extremely offensive and intolerant behavior, fraud, or wanton destruction of other people's property. In no case has anyone been permanently banned without clear evidence from the logs -- we have never banned anyone, for example, based on hearsay.

When a ban is implemented, it is our belief that the Terms of Service, which represent the contractual agreement between Linden Lab and our customers, should be fairly applied. Linden currency only has value if you take it outside of SL to a third party exchange. It is stated clearly in the TOS that we don't attach a value to Linden currency. Because we do sell land, however, in US$, it seems fair to us to allow someone to recover at least some of the value of that investment. Hence the change to the TOS we recently made.

Robin, I'm not nickpicking, but there are two notes about LL's attachment to inworld money and USD.

I take this directly from your new website:

====================

Second Life is a land of opportunity. Did you ever think you’d be able to make real money in a virtual world?

- Money you earn in Second Life's in-world currency (Linden Dollars, L$) can be converted to cash on several third-party websites, such as Gaming Open Market or Internet Gaming Entertainment. Some of these operators offer convenient in-world "ATM" machines to facilitate transactions.

- What's a Linden Dollar worth? Take a quick look at the today's exchange rate between L$ and US$

- In addition, every month Linden Lab reinvests some of the revenue from Second Life into cash Developer Incentive awards for the most successful Residents in Second Life based on Dwell (the amount of time other Residents spend visiting your land).

=================

Individuals are tied to their "networth" in SL by the inworld currency, their land holdings; and unfortunately even the Developer Awards.

While your TOS clearly states "L's are not tied to USD" -- the advertising on this page does state rather clearly that L's are tied to USD, and that LL is actively promoting the conversion of L's to currency. If not, this wouldn't be such a large splash page on the website.

None of what you said makes me any more comfortable about LL's stance on this, Robin.

And I'm afraid I just don't believe that you suspend people 'based on what can be proved'. I've seen enough unjust suspensions of people who just DON'T do the kind of things that warrant them, deliberate or accidental. Yes, we can argue about this forever, but the fact is that unless you change the transparency with which abuse reports are dealt with then people are always going to cry foul. And given the people I've seen suspended without reason, I believe, as do many others, that it is simply not the case that there is always absolute proof. You will simply never convince me any differently until you change the process.

LL's continual insistence that it's a privacy issue doesnt really hold up anyway as has been discussed many times before.

(On an unrelated subject, do you know how many RL users details you've exposed with the batch uploading of images option? Since a 'feature' kindly fills out the full path of the source image in the description, and since many, many users choose to keep ther images in their 'my documents' folder under their user name, which often happens to be their real name. I know at least one player that felt compelled to leave SL because of the fallout from this particular little feature. When you stop doing stupid shit like that, then I might have a little more conviction in what you say about privacy).

Oh, and Robin, you kind of made my point for me IMO - your deciding alone who gets banned and who doesnt, without there being any kind of appeals process or ways to answer your accusers... that IS the kangaroo court I was talking about. It is as unbefitting the society that SL has become and that you expect it to grow to as is your lack of international support. When is LL going to grow up to the point they can handle the world they have created?

Given all this, I have to admit I lack confidence to say for certain that I will never be banned. I will certainly have to think twice about how I play SL in future. For one thing, I can no longer be confident of just leaving money sitting around in my account in world. I will change it up into USD, and therefore spend less on the content created by other players (sorry Neph!).

If for any reason I did get banned - even if i deserved it - and you tried to keep my 'monopoly money' despite everything you boast about it on the website, I can assure you that I would certainly take legal action to recover it, and would urge anyone in that position to do the same.

It is wholly unfair, no matter WHAT the person has done to deserve a permanent ban, to keep their money - your right to do this stopped the day you allowed GOM to accept USD in exchange for Linden Dollars, no matter what you say on your website or ToS.

Frankly, even given the gravity of Paris' supposed crimes, I wish her luck in recovering her Linden Dollar value, because I think LL's attitude here is digusting. I don't care if you ban me from using your service for life, but to fine me a penalty of whatever happens to be in my account is not on. I don't even see how you can attempt to justify it with a straight face.

The biggest flaw in SL is the abuse reporting system and how you Lindens arbitrate it. And given the rest of the flaws in SL, thats saying something.

I have to agree with Kris, this does make me uneasy.

A system with no appeals process that can effectively rob you of all your in-world assets is somewhat disturbing. While I'm sure LL has a good track record of being fair with bannings, it is not too hard to imagine a case falls through the cracks.

Suppose you go on vacation, and someone manages to steal one of your accounts, and commits all sorts of anti-TOS violations. All sorts of logged proof that you acted like an imbecile. Net result, you come home to find all your accounts have been permanently banned.

This goes beyond just L$, which unquestionably have some value. (Annecdote: earlier today even, I loaned a friend L$ go buy something in RL.) The contents of our inventory also have value. I am confident that there are things in my inventory that I can sell for US$.

I think even a clause that would allow us to transfer our entire inventory/balance to another person in the event that we should be banned would be an improvement. That would allow us a chance to recover our assets should a disaster strike.


PS.
On another note, I'm not sure why a "3rd Party exchange" is part of this discussion. I'm sure there are many people who are quite happy to exchange L$/other in-world assets for US$ directly.