Second Life Forums Archive - How much of an impact do Linden alts have on the content, the economy, and society?

Unhygienix Gullwing

I banged Pandastrong

Join date: 26 Jun 2004

Posts: 728

02-09-2005 15:17

Ok, so there are Linden alts out there. No big whoop, but they don't act in a vacuum. Through their activities and their interactions, to they have a noticeable effect on the world of Second Life?

I've heard that Linden employees are not permitted to engage in $L - $US currency exchange. Does this rule apply to their alts also? If yes, and they are content creators, do they function as an economic sink, a way to reduce the amount of circulating $L? Again, if yes, how much of an effect do they have on the economy, and are they merely permitted to create and sell, or actively encouraged to do so?

Do Linden alts mostly sort of hang around, or are they active, perhaps well-known members of the community? Are they involved in major projects, like Neueueueltenberg or Neverland, and if so, should we welcome their contributions gladly, or treat them as suspect because they work for The Company but function at least in-part as an apparent resident.

If Lindens, through their alts, are pushing us forward in terms of creativity, building, scripting, etc; are they doing so on their own time, or are they being encouraged to do so by the company?

Do they post in the forums? And if so, does it represent a conflict of interest between their "private account" self and their "linden account" self? The "Linden" family members show a great deal of restraint in offering their opinions in-world, in talking too much about what's going on behind the curtain, or what's coming, or generally things that we're not supposed to know about.

Has this been covered before, and if yes, will you accept my apology for dredging the subject back up?

CalvinRichard Klein

Registered User

Join date: 21 Sep 2004

Posts: 160

02-09-2005 15:18

I personally dont think this should even be discussed. Who cares? They are people too and its probably good because they notice freatures they would like as a consumer and such.

Pete Fats

Geek

Join date: 18 Apr 2003

Posts: 648

02-09-2005 15:21

From: CalvinRichard Klein

Who cares?

I gotta go with this...if Linden employees abuse their accounts, I'm sure they will be delt with. Bah.

_____________________

Unhygienix Gullwing

I banged Pandastrong

Join date: 26 Jun 2004

Posts: 728

02-09-2005 15:28

I'm not interested in whether they are abusing their alts. I think they'd be unlikely to do this for the reason that their "work" world is our "play" world; they know each other's RL identities and thus are less likely to behave inappropriately.

What I'm more curious about is just how much our world and its contents are shaped by the company. Second Life is described so often as 99% created by the residents; other than the sky, the ground and the physics. If Linden alts are active members of the community, however, is that still true?

I'm not suspicious of their activities, merely curious; particularly for the input of some of the longtime residents (except linden alts; if you are a linden alt, don't reply to this thread

). Do their activities have a noticeable effect on the world, and how do they effect it?

Zuzi Martinez

goth dachshund

Join date: 4 Sep 2004

Posts: 1,860

02-09-2005 15:32

i'ma guess that Linden alts are responsible for less than 1% of 1% of the world's contents and if they all quit tomorrow no one would ever notice.

Torley makes a good point in the next post so to clarify......i'm talking about people who started out as Lindens and then play non-Linden alts in their spare time. i'm not talking about people who started out as players and contributed to the community then got hired as Lindens later.

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

02-09-2005 15:40

It's not unknown that a number of current Lindens who were formerly only Residents have contributed vast amounts of technological and other societal advancements to the gridverse of Second Life. This would include innovations in building, scripting, UI, and just about all the relevant pillars that keep the wheels of progress churning-and-burning. Not to mention some really fun stuff that'll keep you hoping and hopping for more.

There is a large quantity of VERY obvious clues and pointers attesting to this inworld, but out of respect for personal privacy and honest discretion, it's not something that is put on the table for discussion on an everyday basis. To say the least: from the mere fraction that I have witnessed, if we were to strip the historical contributions made by Residents-turned-Lindens-who-still-exist-with-their-alts-and-whatnot, I do believe SL's fundamental structure would fall apart worse than a piece of paper in the water being gnawed on by hippos. Would it be rebuilt in time? Sure, by new excellence in the community-turned-Lindens. I say this semi-jestingly but it's really quite the continuum.

I, for one, am grateful to have angels watching over us.

_____________________

Siggy Romulus

DILLIGAF

Join date: 22 Sep 2003

Posts: 5,711

02-09-2005 17:47

This was brought up long ago - and LL (Robin I think) posted a LONG LONG list of things that folks working for LL cannot do.

Cannot as in - 'An employee of Linden Lab cannot....'

I remember a few of the bits and peices but it was a LOOOOOONG ass list...

Anyone going and becoming a Linden must REALLY love Second Life, because they forfeit a bunch of stuff for the reward of being poked, prodded, and accused of being bugbears.

Siggy.

_____________________

The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden

I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread

Eggy Lippmann

Wiktator

Join date: 1 May 2003

Posts: 7,939

02-09-2005 18:33

The ones I know, like most of the old timers, barely log on, and when they do, its to hang out, build their private little place, etc.
You know... What SL was supposed to be, before LL opened the floodgates and let the crazy capitalists invade

_____________________

Help us document Second Life history at http://slhistory.org!

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

02-09-2005 18:54

From: Eggy Lippmann

The ones I know, like most of the old timers, barely log on, and when they do, its to hang out, build their private little place, etc.

OMG

THANKS FOR CONFIRMING THAT

That just clued me into something I'd been missing all along.

"So eh, hey... why don't you come exploring with me sometime?"

and then the polite "nah" to that.

!!!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

_____________________

Imp Ludovico

the impudent guttersnipe

Join date: 20 Nov 2004

Posts: 121

02-09-2005 19:32

Angels among us, is all.

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

02-09-2005 19:52

From: Imp Ludovico

Angels among us, is all.

Sigh...for the hundr...okay, for the FIRST time! I am NOT a Linden alt!

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Unhygienix Gullwing

I banged Pandastrong

Join date: 26 Jun 2004

Posts: 728

02-09-2005 20:04

Clearly you are not a linden alt, since I specifically asked that they not post in this thread.

Lordfly Digeridoo

Prim Orchestrator

Join date: 21 Jul 2003

Posts: 3,628

02-09-2005 20:47

From: Unhygienix Gullwing

Ok, so there are Linden alts out there. No big whoop, but they don't act in a vacuum. Through their activities and their interactions, to they have a noticeable effect on the world of Second Life?

From: someone

I've heard that Linden employees are not permitted to engage in $L - $US currency exchange. Does this rule apply to their alts also?

Yes. Among other rules they have to follow, linden alts cannot sell money on GOM or IGE or AnsheCorp or whatever; it's essentially "play money" to them. I imagine this is to prevent any possible insider trading.

From: someone

If yes, and they are content creators, do they function as an economic sink, a way to reduce the amount of circulating $L?

Probably negligible; although the few lindens that I do know tend not to be high-profile people anyways, including in-world business savvy; yet, their skills are impeccable and amazing in what they produce.

From: someone

Do Linden alts mostly sort of hang around, or are they active, perhaps well-known members of the community? Are they involved in major projects, like Neueueueltenberg or Neverland, and if so, should we welcome their contributions gladly, or treat them as suspect because they work for The Company but function at least in-part as an apparent resident.

Treat the lindens off-duty as you would anyone else; with respect.

From: someone

If Lindens, through their alts, are pushing us forward in terms of creativity, building, scripting, etc; are they doing so on their own time, or are they being encouraged to do so by the company?

It's probably their (assumably) free-wheeling work environment that does it. I mean, think about it; Ben Linden just released a thingie called a Ben-go; he got PAID to make a POGO STICK. How sweet is that?

On top of that, notice how much fun the lindens have with press releases (ie the new continent thing), how much they participate in the discussions, how much fun they have in-world (snowball fights etc)... I think they have a very open workplace, and it probably reflects in their in-world personas, on-duty and off.

From: someone

Do they post in the forums? And if so, does it represent a conflict of interest between their "private account" self and their "linden account" self? The "Linden" family members show a great deal of restraint in offering their opinions in-world, in talking too much about what's going on behind the curtain, or what's coming, or generally things that we're not supposed to know about.

If they have restraint, they probably have the foresight to not post in the forums much now, eh? (that rules me out, sadly

)

They're good questions, though.

Consider this, however; there are residents in-world right now, with no official affiliation with linden lab, that pull a LOT more weight in their respective areas than any linden participation could hope to achieve. Think builders, clothing designers, land speculators.

Also consider that there are longer-time players that have been in SL longer than some lindens have even HEARD about SL.

LF

_____________________

----
http://www.lordfly.com/
http://www.twitter.com/lordfly
http://www.plurk.com/lordfly

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

02-09-2005 23:59

I would like to post a reference dating back to April of '04 -- Robin Linden's own words on the topic, which are still relevant today:

/3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250

_____________________

Hiro Pendragon

bye bye f0rums!

Join date: 22 Jan 2004

Posts: 5,905

02-10-2005 00:11

From: Torley Torgeson

I would like to post a reference dating back to April of '04 -- Robin Linden's own words on the topic, which are still relevant today:

/3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250/3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250

Nice find there, Torley, especially since this was way before your time

I wonder if charging money for SL-related websites is also restricted.

Purely hypothetical: For instance, what if LL hired a person who rand a SL auction website that accepted Paypal to purchase products. L$ never entered the transactions. Would that person have to give up their auction website / profits, or would that be okay since L$ are never a factor?

_____________________

Hiro Pendragon
------------------
http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio

Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com

Moopf Murray

Moopfmerising

Join date: 7 Jan 2004

Posts: 2,448

02-10-2005 00:17

Yeah, I hate people who edit their posts out later but, on second thoughts, I don't actually want to get involved with this.

blaze Spinnaker

1/2 Serious

Join date: 12 Aug 2004

Posts: 5,898

02-10-2005 01:19

I suspect that they are a boon for the economy and the content, as more risk taking is possible, however they can be problematic for the social aspects of the game.

_____________________

Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."

How much of an impact do Linden alts have on the content, the economy, and society?
Unhygienix Gullwing I banged Pandastrong Join date: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 728	02-09-2005 15:17 Ok, so there are Linden alts out there. No big whoop, but they don't act in a vacuum. Through their activities and their interactions, to they have a noticeable effect on the world of Second Life? I've heard that Linden employees are not permitted to engage in $L - $US currency exchange. Does this rule apply to their alts also? If yes, and they are content creators, do they function as an economic sink, a way to reduce the amount of circulating $L? Again, if yes, how much of an effect do they have on the economy, and are they merely permitted to create and sell, or actively encouraged to do so? Do Linden alts mostly sort of hang around, or are they active, perhaps well-known members of the community? Are they involved in major projects, like Neueueueltenberg or Neverland, and if so, should we welcome their contributions gladly, or treat them as suspect because they work for The Company but function at least in-part as an apparent resident. If Lindens, through their alts, are pushing us forward in terms of creativity, building, scripting, etc; are they doing so on their own time, or are they being encouraged to do so by the company? Do they post in the forums? And if so, does it represent a conflict of interest between their "private account" self and their "linden account" self? The "Linden" family members show a great deal of restraint in offering their opinions in-world, in talking too much about what's going on behind the curtain, or what's coming, or generally things that we're not supposed to know about. Has this been covered before, and if yes, will you accept my apology for dredging the subject back up?
CalvinRichard Klein Registered User Join date: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 160	02-09-2005 15:18 I personally dont think this should even be discussed. Who cares? They are people too and its probably good because they notice freatures they would like as a consumer and such.
Pete Fats Geek Join date: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 648	02-09-2005 15:21 From: CalvinRichard Klein Who cares? I gotta go with this...if Linden employees abuse their accounts, I'm sure they will be delt with. Bah. _____________________
Unhygienix Gullwing I banged Pandastrong Join date: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 728	02-09-2005 15:28 I'm not interested in whether they are abusing their alts. I think they'd be unlikely to do this for the reason that their "work" world is our "play" world; they know each other's RL identities and thus are less likely to behave inappropriately. What I'm more curious about is just how much our world and its contents are shaped by the company. Second Life is described so often as 99% created by the residents; other than the sky, the ground and the physics. If Linden alts are active members of the community, however, is that still true? I'm not suspicious of their activities, merely curious; particularly for the input of some of the longtime residents (except linden alts; if you are a linden alt, don't reply to this thread ). Do their activities have a noticeable effect on the world, and how do they effect it?
Zuzi Martinez goth dachshund Join date: 4 Sep 2004 Posts: 1,860	02-09-2005 15:32 i'ma guess that Linden alts are responsible for less than 1% of 1% of the world's contents and if they all quit tomorrow no one would ever notice. Torley makes a good point in the next post so to clarify......i'm talking about people who started out as Lindens and then play non-Linden alts in their spare time. i'm not talking about people who started out as players and contributed to the community then got hired as Lindens later.
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	02-09-2005 15:40 It's not unknown that a number of current Lindens who were formerly only Residents have contributed vast amounts of technological and other societal advancements to the gridverse of Second Life. This would include innovations in building, scripting, UI, and just about all the relevant pillars that keep the wheels of progress churning-and-burning. Not to mention some really fun stuff that'll keep you hoping and hopping for more. There is a large quantity of VERY obvious clues and pointers attesting to this inworld, but out of respect for personal privacy and honest discretion, it's not something that is put on the table for discussion on an everyday basis. To say the least: from the mere fraction that I have witnessed, if we were to strip the historical contributions made by Residents-turned-Lindens-who-still-exist-with-their-alts-and-whatnot, I do believe SL's fundamental structure would fall apart worse than a piece of paper in the water being gnawed on by hippos. Would it be rebuilt in time? Sure, by new excellence in the community-turned-Lindens. I say this semi-jestingly but it's really quite the continuum. I, for one, am grateful to have angels watching over us. _____________________
Siggy Romulus DILLIGAF Join date: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 5,711	02-09-2005 17:47 This was brought up long ago - and LL (Robin I think) posted a LONG LONG list of things that folks working for LL cannot do. Cannot as in - 'An employee of Linden Lab cannot....' I remember a few of the bits and peices but it was a LOOOOOONG ass list... Anyone going and becoming a Linden must REALLY love Second Life, because they forfeit a bunch of stuff for the reward of being poked, prodded, and accused of being bugbears. Siggy. _____________________ The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Eggy Lippmann Wiktator Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 7,939	02-09-2005 18:33 The ones I know, like most of the old timers, barely log on, and when they do, its to hang out, build their private little place, etc. You know... What SL was supposed to be, before LL opened the floodgates and let the crazy capitalists invade _____________________ Help us document Second Life history at http://slhistory.org!
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	02-09-2005 18:54 From: Eggy Lippmann The ones I know, like most of the old timers, barely log on, and when they do, its to hang out, build their private little place, etc. OMG THANKS FOR CONFIRMING THAT That just clued me into something I'd been missing all along. "So eh, hey... why don't you come exploring with me sometime?" and then the polite "nah" to that. !!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE. _____________________
Imp Ludovico the impudent guttersnipe Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 121	02-09-2005 19:32 Angels among us, is all.
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	02-09-2005 19:52 From: Imp Ludovico Angels among us, is all. Sigh...for the hundr...okay, for the FIRST time! I am NOT a Linden alt! _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Unhygienix Gullwing I banged Pandastrong Join date: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 728	02-09-2005 20:04 Clearly you are not a linden alt, since I specifically asked that they not post in this thread.
Lordfly Digeridoo Prim Orchestrator Join date: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 3,628	02-09-2005 20:47 From: Unhygienix Gullwing Ok, so there are Linden alts out there. No big whoop, but they don't act in a vacuum. Through their activities and their interactions, to they have a noticeable effect on the world of Second Life? From: someone I've heard that Linden employees are not permitted to engage in $L - $US currency exchange. Does this rule apply to their alts also? Yes. Among other rules they have to follow, linden alts cannot sell money on GOM or IGE or AnsheCorp or whatever; it's essentially "play money" to them. I imagine this is to prevent any possible insider trading. From: someone If yes, and they are content creators, do they function as an economic sink, a way to reduce the amount of circulating $L? Probably negligible; although the few lindens that I do know tend not to be high-profile people anyways, including in-world business savvy; yet, their skills are impeccable and amazing in what they produce. From: someone Do Linden alts mostly sort of hang around, or are they active, perhaps well-known members of the community? Are they involved in major projects, like Neueueueltenberg or Neverland, and if so, should we welcome their contributions gladly, or treat them as suspect because they work for The Company but function at least in-part as an apparent resident. Treat the lindens off-duty as you would anyone else; with respect. From: someone If Lindens, through their alts, are pushing us forward in terms of creativity, building, scripting, etc; are they doing so on their own time, or are they being encouraged to do so by the company? It's probably their (assumably) free-wheeling work environment that does it. I mean, think about it; Ben Linden just released a thingie called a Ben-go; he got PAID to make a POGO STICK. How sweet is that? On top of that, notice how much fun the lindens have with press releases (ie the new continent thing), how much they participate in the discussions, how much fun they have in-world (snowball fights etc)... I think they have a very open workplace, and it probably reflects in their in-world personas, on-duty and off. From: someone Do they post in the forums? And if so, does it represent a conflict of interest between their "private account" self and their "linden account" self? The "Linden" family members show a great deal of restraint in offering their opinions in-world, in talking too much about what's going on behind the curtain, or what's coming, or generally things that we're not supposed to know about. If they have restraint, they probably have the foresight to not post in the forums much now, eh? (that rules me out, sadly ) They're good questions, though. Consider this, however; there are residents in-world right now, with no official affiliation with linden lab, that pull a LOT more weight in their respective areas than any linden participation could hope to achieve. Think builders, clothing designers, land speculators. Also consider that there are longer-time players that have been in SL longer than some lindens have even HEARD about SL. LF _____________________ ---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	02-09-2005 23:59 I would like to post a reference dating back to April of '04 -- Robin Linden's own words on the topic, which are still relevant today: /3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250 _____________________
Hiro Pendragon bye bye f0rums! Join date: 22 Jan 2004 Posts: 5,905	02-10-2005 00:11 From: Torley Torgeson I would like to post a reference dating back to April of '04 -- Robin Linden's own words on the topic, which are still relevant today: /3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250/3/d3/12446/1.html#post109250 Nice find there, Torley, especially since this was way before your time I wonder if charging money for SL-related websites is also restricted. Purely hypothetical: For instance, what if LL hired a person who rand a SL auction website that accepted Paypal to purchase products. L$ never entered the transactions. Would that person have to give up their auction website / profits, or would that be okay since L$ are never a factor? _____________________ Hiro Pendragon ------------------ http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com
Moopf Murray Moopfmerising Join date: 7 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,448	02-10-2005 00:17 Yeah, I hate people who edit their posts out later but, on second thoughts, I don't actually want to get involved with this.
blaze Spinnaker 1/2 Serious Join date: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 5,898	02-10-2005 01:19 I suspect that they are a boon for the economy and the content, as more risk taking is possible, however they can be problematic for the social aspects of the game. _____________________ Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : "User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."

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How much of an impact do Linden alts have on the content, the economy, and society?