Live performers fee's

I think all venue owners in SL need to open their eyes here. These live performers, whether singing , DJ, or what ever service they offer are charging out rages fees to perform for one hour at your club , then they walk away with most of the tips also. Most perfomers charge anyway from 3000 L to 15,000 L for one hour show, what is wrong with this picture? I say these performers change a set fee for their one hour service , then all tips at show go to venue. I know venue owners who are making nothing but traffic while these performers who many use recordings are raking in the lindens. The Venue owners are giving them the chance to perform there , they should at least give them the tips or at least split it with venue. I think it is time you all wake up!! They buy sims, mansions, live the life of a star here while sucking off of you all, smarten up!! This is not right!! They charge way too much to begin with and they do it because you pay it!!! Then they walk away with the tips too!! This is SL not RL and their is a reason they are performing here and not in RL. put your damm foot down , they will agree, without venues they will not have their fancy sims and mansions.

fancy sims and mansions??? LOL please tell me who and where .. still ROFL..

BTW
Many of the musicians are RL musicians as well. some are not

many of us musicians own or run a venue to.

When I play for tips 90% of the time I as well split them with the venue. as being on both sides i know the loss of running a club..

you CANT force someone not to tip directly by clicking pay so and so.. you can't enforce a split nor a all tips go to the venue on a top dollar fee pay musician.. if yo don't want to pay that fee you don't have to there are tons of us that play free and for tips only...

IMHO...any venue that has any store or mall or stripper attached to it should pay a FEE of some kind and no split tips . if its just a music venue then that's where it differs.

So... you feel you should be the one making money off a live performer's hard work?
For what? For going through all the difficulty and challenges associated with standing near the door, saying hello, and offering group tags?

Performers are providing a service. That service is providing entertainment. The whole point is to bring traffic to your venue. You're paying for traffic to your venue.

If you want cheaper talent, fine... be aware that your return on traffic will be less. I'd play a gig for free, but I would only attract my one fan - my wife

You want musicians to play for free? Host a charity show. Host an Open Mic. You want to make money off performers? Go work for the RIAA.

The OP has a valid point. One that venue owners have pointed out several times in these forums. The SOLE SUPPORTER of the Live Music scene in Second Life are the Venue Owners. The Club owners pay or rent the land, pay the monthly maintenance and staff fees.

When Live Performances started out in SL they did it for publicity for their RL careers and MP3s for sale on the internet. Then the performers saw they could make hundreds for real dollars a month by signing in their bedroom. And that's great for them.

Taking as much as you can from the sole supporters of your service does not seem like a good long-term business plan. Hopefully some performers will recognize this and develop a better system that does not gouge the venue owners.

EDIT: yes it is a valid point... but Lias you know there are to to many clubs/venues in SL you must.. and that is a big part of the problome...

This has been hashed out over and over here and at SLMC Forums...

the bottom line is the listener should be paying the cost. And at this time theres no good way to make that work. there have been a couple well done ticked shows that worked for both the venue and artist but they haven't done any in a long time to my knowledge.

as a venue owner as well as a live performer I do my venue tips only, I wont get the big names nor the best players, but I get some great music some real musicians and believers in the power of music, as well my venue gets a bit of traffic and maybe some generous tips. And I have fun! and tip as well as most get paid anyway

on the musician side I watch tip jars I know some are pulling in 2-5G Linden$ for a show.. good for them. I have done real well some nights others not so much.. it goes for the same with venues.

the bottom line is until ALL patrons understand and know they need to not only tip the musician but the venue as well (something I do 50-50 each tip!) there's going to be an uneven playing field. there are also to many running venues and clubs thinking they are the place for music there are so so many now, and more everyday, and then the clubs that try it for a week. As musicians we will never run out of places to play, the smart ones do it because they love to have all the different musicians play. and so do I its cheap entertainment ;D

then throw in the differences in tipping from the US to EU to other parts of the world it becomes a mess.

Tipping is not going to make the venue owner a profit or even allow them to break even after the venue owner pays the large base fee of the performer. Yes, if the performer works for tips and there is a shared percentage tip jar put out there - then it is a more even playing field.

I would like to see a foundation created by Live Performers and Venue Owners to seek corporate sponsorship that would allow the music to flow 'freely' across the grid. This is not a lofty goal.


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Musicians SHOULD NOT have to pay to play...they are providing a service.
We (Redzone) spend HOURS preparing our shows, both in terms of SL-stuff (venue-builds/animations/visuals/instruments) and in terms of actually rehearsing music.

We are happy to do it at no cost to a venue - any good band or musician should have the courage of their convictions and play for tips....no upfront fees (think of it as performance related pay) - but why should we pay as well?

Playing for tips also makes the musician/band more inclined to publicise the event,
as more avatars= more tips.

Venue owners are facing the same problem as the music industry as a whole - how to create revenue from something that people want for free? It SHOULD NOT be the musicians, the people actually doing the work, who fund it.

I do not think that anyone suggested that musicians pay to play. There are no recurring fees that a musician incurs in order to provide live performances in Second Life. The venue incurs all of the fees.

Many musicians have built up quite a following from playing to the audiences of these venue owners. The musicians can participate in keeping some of these extraordinary Live Venues alive by NOT charging so much. They can also use percentage tip jars so the venue gets some expenses covered.

Venue owners are not trying to create a profit from Live performances. Tier, equipment, advertising and staffing eats up any incoming funds. Yes, there are a few musicians that have decided to 'cut out the middle man' and build venues themselves. But those few have realized that in doing that, they have poured a large percentage of their performance income into tier, etc.


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I know that some venues etc don't have their own stream.... A lot of performers, including myself, have to rent a stream, therefore there is indeed 'recurring fees' for a lot of us.

A steam for 100 listeners at 128 kbs is ten dollars a month. That in no way compares to the monthly expenses a Second Life Venue Owner incurs. We all love profit. But I do not think it is wise or even community-minded to charge so much and take all the tips from the venues that provide a audience for you all. Just because your making a profit does not mean it is a sound, long-term business plan.

In real life - how many concert halls stay open to performers when there is no income from performances to pay rent and staff?


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It seems to me that most SL venue owners are merely doing the same as most RL promoters...expecting to get a free service from their performers, and expecting them to do all ofthe actual promoting.

What exactly is the involvement of the SL venue owner? It's not like you need a venue in SL in the same way.

TO MUSICIANS:
Think about the paradigm....this is a virtual world. Things can be done differently here, a your venue can be ANYTHING you like!

TO VENUE OWNERS:
Pay-to-Play or tip-splitting, what's the difference? Nobody is forcing you to run a venue.
If YOU can't figure out a way to make it pay, that's YOUR problem. Don't make the performers deal with your problems for you. Maybe you should open a shop instead!

Well, at least some honesty (or just a troll). Yes, musicians could play on the side of Linden roads. Or open their own venues and pay the same fees as the venue owners pay.

Perhaps once some musicians step into the venue owner's shoes they can then see the situation clearly and start working towards fair solutions.

In RL - it is just a business. The musician is getting a portion of ticket sales in advance. No venue owner is paying for everything to have a full house for a hour. Everyone's costs are covered or it is a bust.

We certainly do not mind donating to the arts on occasion. But musicians should realize that their sole supporter needs support also.


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I have to say in all honesty I've been somewhat underwhelmed by my experience as regards live music performance in SL. I now treat the whole exercise as nothing more than an open rehearsal and an opportunity to play around with visual thematic presentation concepts.

I've had a lifetime of managers, promoters, agents and all sorts in RL telling me how great they are, how much I really, really need their 'essential' services and should be eternally grateful for the crumbs they offer me after stealing my bread, etc. No, I've come here to SL to get away from all that jive. And what do I find? The same old bloodsuckers and ratrace in playschool miniature all over again. No thanks.

No one is saying you need their essential service. What we are saying that if you do take advantage of what a Venue has to offer - that you be financial fair about it.

You behave as if there is money coming out of your pocket for the venue owner. The money comes from the patrons.

And if you treat it as an open rehearsal I assume you do not charge venue owners anymore. Thanks for your support.

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well we`ll see how the band does when the club got no L$ to keep a club open after all no club no live shows hmmm where you playing tonight ? oh wait there no club dang nothing to do again

Well, we don't want to go the way of the DoDo Bird.
Clubs were around since 2004 In Second Life. Way before the first Live Performer hit the grid. ANd clubs will always be here. And hopefully we can expand upon the relationship that started with Live performers a few years ago. Right now I feel it is going in the wrong direction. Creating a virtual caste system of those who can afford to have Live Music in their venues and those who cannot.

Let's try to develop a better system and premiere it at the SL birthday party this summer.

SL MUSICIANS: The solution is simple.

Find a region you like.
Buy a plot.
Build a venue...ideally an intersting one.
CHANGE the venue when you vary your performance...give something to your fans.
Play well.
Ask for tips.
If you are any good, you will make a profit from your SL actvities, PLUS any promotional activity or sales in RL you can generate are a bonus.

The problem with this scenario is that a) it assumes because you're a competent singer or musician you have building/scripting/landscaping interest or skills and b) that the singers/musicians want to find out what it's like to have to deal with staff and customers rather than adoring fans. I think live music will be around in SL until the RIAA starts asking for fees and royalties at which point I assume LL will step in and things will change. All that said, the economic/business model for live music needs to change if it's to continue; the one-sided equation will self-destruct.