"Exclusion Possession" - I was the boot...

Hi I'm new. *points to join date, post count, prepares to be barbecued for having an opinion*

I've come to SL a bit late. Mostly because I wasn't really aware of what it was, or what it did.

I remembered seeing some screenies of it back in 2003 and shrugging it off because the article that accompanied them wasn't really all that comprehensive and to my personal experience anything beyond a comprehensive analysis of this game would fall drastically short of being able to present it to the general public in any kind of fair and balanced fashion.

Regardless, as I said, I've come to SL a bit late. I'm not alone, thousands of people like me are drifting this way due to SOE product related mismanagement.

The world we've come to seems absolutely bounding with possibilities and opportunities. It is a world built on social discourse and consumerism and creativity...a world with no rules but the ones you make. Or...so things appear on the surface.

As I ready myself and my little life raft group of people to go premium, and as I delve deeper into the minutia of land ownership....I find that there are rules...incredibly realistic and brutal ones...that I myself, and many other new residents to the world are going to have to deal with to attempt to make SL our new home.

Now for me, as a hobbyist graphics artist...all of this is well, just the other side of the coin thats a bit dirtier than grubbier than the shiny bright side of the coin which is a game I can make as I play it. For others with less inherent talent or training...it may be intolerable and cause the game to be a hostile and limiting enviroment for them.

Basically it comes down to land, and the economy.

First of all, I'm a renter. I live in a nicely built Sim and pay weekly rent to a guy whos been really nice to me and my family in the game. Originally I thought this would be a temporary situation until we all went premium and pooled our entitlements into a group land purchase. But now that I've investigated further, it seems like its pointless to even try to buy land and heres why.

The plot we rent for 800L a week is 1536sqM, we have a prim limitation set by the sim admin of 600 prims. Originally I was unhappy with this...because we've got 1536sqm on the lot, of which about 1024sqM is house...and only about half of it is decorated and we're already at 508 prims of our availible 600 prims.

So I figured we'd buy...to increase our prim counts so we could build something nice of our own and furnish and decorate it nicely...but as it turns out, we'd have to BUY double the land we already rent...simply to have the same prim count we've already got.

So...I was, of course, daunted, but I sat back and thought about design possibilities and as it turns out...I'm pretty confident that I can build a fairly good house for six people in less than 40 prims. Sure it won't be a Taj Mahal..but for our first steps in the world does it really have to be?

So...with that in mind, I stick my nose back into the world of land ownership in SL...and...as it turns out, there is yet another stumbling block...and that stumbling block is conglomerate land ownership and the fact that more or less the only way to get more than 512sqM of Linden land...is to purchase this land from someone other than Linden Labs.

Okay okay okay...fine...I'll do that. But...guess what? Because SL is based in monetary success....the people that own these lands sell these plots at 10,000 - 25,000L and possibly even more depending on location.

So I am forced to turn around to my family...the beautiful people that followed me here from a dying game...and tell them "I'm sorry...for us to truely have a place of our own in this game we must hand another real life player the real life equivalent of nearly $100 USD to even begin."

Because thats what it would cost us to buy a nice plot of land in the size we'd need to support the prim count we'd want. And thats what it all comes down to when you're living with six other people.

So I sit down and try to think....how can I reach this goal for my family?

Well quite obviously there are two ways. I can;

1.) Attain the amount of Lindens in an in game fashion working (in theory) or creating products.

2.) I can use the Lindex and buy the Lindens I need.

Now...this by itself draws me into another set of problems.

First of all...there are no jobs. Not unless you like dancing...which..thankfully...I do. So yes I actually HAVE a job...which is more than I can say for alot of people in SL because employment opportunities are largely just charity donations to increase dwell than they are actual salaries being provided to people in exchange for skilled or unskilled labor.

And while I truely appreciate the opportunity that I have been given with the job I have...I look at my daily pay and realize that to even be able to sit at the table with a real estate owner and talk serious business...I would have to work three months straight of nothing BUT work at the club and not spend a single Linden except in the case of rent...and even then...I'd have to hope for good tippers (and its not exactly raining Linden where I work...I appreciate everything I get of course...just saying tips were far different in the game I and the girls used to dance in) every day.

So with that in mind...the next possibility is to create products. "Hey...I can do that!" I think gleefully as I open Adobe CS and take two days off and on making something simply to have no one even notice it and those that did make their own in about half the time.

So I look around and I try to see where me...with my hobbyist talents, could fit into the production market. And I realize...well, everything I can do...lots of other people are already doing and guess what? They've been doing it longer...have more experience and an established clientele and reputation, they have a self sustaining source of resource capital already and more or less attempting to even set foot in this part of the game would be equivalent to a tribe of stick wielding savages attempting to invade a nuclear super power....oh and whats more...to even attempt to break into the producer market I'd have to be paying rents and sales taxes to the very same people, in most cases, that I was competing with for business, to even try.

So again...I am daunted.

Leaving me with the final option. Buy Linden dollars off the Lindex to jump start my families place in the world.

But then...with my families background in finance banking...I can already see what the Lindex is. And heres the issue I have with it.

A Land Baron puts 100,000 Linden on the Exchange.

I buy...25000 Linden off the Exchange...which is the equivalent of roughly 100 USD.

Then I take that 25000 Linden and hand it to another player to purchase the plot of land they own.

That other player is the previous Land Baron that placed the very same Linden on the Exchange in the first place.

So I pay them 100USD to buy their money, then I give them that 25000 Linden, which they turn around and put back on the Lindex...and make another 100 USD off of. So I'm not only out 100 dollars, but....a smart financier has just made 200 dollars off the same transaction.

Oh and...in a brief return to the beginning of this rather wordy post....all I've gained is twice the land to attempt to furnish/decorate...and the exact same prim count I have right now..which is costing me the Linden equivalent of 16 dollars a month.

And once again, and most finally...I am daunted.

The game beyond a free access account is a....depressing and daunting endeavor. And its mostly because its like coming in on a game of Monopoly and the other players have lent you 500 dollars from the bank (at a brutal interest rate) and they already own all the railroads, utilities...and Park Place and Boardwalk.

It truely makes the role of proletariat wanderer seem far more attractive than even trying to make a real place in the world....because even if I was to wreck my personal real life finances and buy a private island...what...exactly..would I be gaining other than a view...and just a higher set of limitations? What...exactly...would be the return on any such investment?

Seems to me, that there is none, and that the late to the gate masses (sorry we're late...but we're here now...hope you don't mind) have no real role other than to be sheared like sheep by vested interests that are already holding and profiting off of most of the money and land in the game.

In some ways SL is, possibly, too real.

Anyways sorry for the length of this post. Like I said, I'm new and alot of it may just be inexperienced observations. I just wanted to get it all out of my head somewhere and I will now return to being a happy consumer sheep and will not bleat again for fear of becoming lambchops.

For what its worth...the people that I've met so far in the game world have been incredibly kind to me...and my family, and in that case, I am grateful.

See you in 1.8.0

I'll be honest and tell you that you lost me somewhere near the prim count business. But I wanted to post and warn you about self-fulfilling prophecies.

Same here. Anyway, welcome aboard!

If you have several people who are willing to buy in at the premium level, you might consider seeing if you have enough people and can find enough contiguous first land plots (or plots in the same sim) that can be claimed and then donated to your group. This could get you the prim count you need.

If not, talk to a land baron and see if they would be willing to trade the first land parcels you all get towards a bigger one. I believe this sort of thing has been done before and the more reputable ones should give you a decent deal on a large plot since you are giving them some small plot inventory. You might make a little more money having each of you pick a plot and sell it, but this could accomplish what you want all at once.

I have been through the group land grinder a few times and it isn't always pleasant (we just finally bought an estate so we wouldn't have to deal with it.) But you and your friends should be able to enjoy yourselves without spending too much RL money. Remember, that station pass in SOE was costing you $22 a month and if everyone just kicked in a quarter of that to your group land acquisition and tier costs, you can have a really good time here.

Welcome to SL, hope this helped a little.

Suzanna - I don't think its quite as bad as it seems.

Just roughly going thru your post, if I'm understanding you correctly, you need approxomately 600 prims to do what you'd like to do.

600 prims, roughly = a 2560m plot.

At todays prices, you should be able to find a 2560m plot for around L$5/sqm, if not less if you find a deal.

That brings the price of your land to L$12,800.

If you purchased L$12,800 on the Lindex today, that would cost you US$48.97


Lets take that a little further:

It would take 5 premium accounts pooled in order to cover a tier of 2560m.

These premium accounts are costing $9.95/month each (even less if you pay the year in advance).

If you divide that $48.97 by 12 months, That equals $4.08 per month.

If you split that $4.08 between each of the 5 accounts owning the land.....


That works out to US$0.81 (cents) per month per account to own that additional land.

Maybe its not so bad after all

Welcome. And, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.



That would not be 200 dollars off the same transaction.

Transaction 1: You purchase 25,000 Linden for 100 USD from seller.
Transaction 2: You purchase Land for 25,000 Linden from the same seller.
Transaction 3: The same seller sells 25,000 Linden to someone else.

You're not involved in the third transaction. At the end of the whole deal, you are out 100 USD but own some land and the seller is out some land but is now 100 USD richer. There's nothing tricky about it that lets a seller get double the money for their land.

Didn't read much of the rest of the post though (too long) .

HP

I still don't understand why people have to have a house in SL?
Or one that looks like a RL house.

Hi Suzanna,

I met you recently and we talked a couple of times. I am another former SWG person, I know several who have joined SL recently. I had no idea you were too

I am not up much on the land stuff, I'll let other people speak to that. But some of my friends who came over from SWG are, and I can try to hook you up with them if you have more questions that do not get answered here. If nothing else, you might like to meet some more people who are going through similar issues getting settled here. Some of them came here before the SWG NGE was released and have even more of a head start.

Feel free to IM me, I'm usually around in the evenings.

Good luck


Kyushu

What Travis said. Also, you need to get hip and wise to the 1st Land Buying Scheme. There are what, 5 or 6 of you? That's 2560 right there with 585 prims. All you need to do is find five contiguous plots in first land space. Find Land lists only a few in each sim; tp there, walk around, and you'll see there are many many plots in that area for sale. You just buy the ones next to each other. People do this all the time; there's a veritable commune next door to my first land plot.

The rest of us run our worlds on the 117 prims per 512m2 system, and it works fine. You can build a house an house five people and furnish it for that easily. You may not be able to build a castle at that level, but there's nothing to say you're entitled to a castle.

FWIW I rent all the land I use (except for my 1st Land plot) beause SL land ownership makes little sense to me. I'm not a property investor and I don't want to be straddled with tier. You could rent a large plot for little money each month; I have 6000m2 and I think I'm paying $28 US a month for it with a bajillion prims. Divide that by 5 people and it's LESS THAN A PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP and you guys can save that 9.95 a month.

Your problems are all solveable, really

Do you need to understand it? I don't understand why people do a lot of the things they do in SL, LOL.


Kyushu

Which means paying L$50/month for the premium accounts, instead of L$16/month for the land in the islands.

Which is why I'm renting a 4096 in the dAlliez islands instead of sitting in a First Land ghetto on the mainland. The one plot of land I wanted on the mainland, in the north of Arches, would have cost me US$200 plus US$40/month... since I couldn't get less than an 8192 parcel. Instead I'm paying US$25/month for a 4096 and with the new ripple water it's gorgeous!

I still want to see this 4000L Pillow of yours suz

The market isn't as all-domineering as you portray it, either. Sure, there's lots of well established content creators with reputation and devoted clientele, but that shouldn't stop you. Create a product that you enjoy, whether it be clothing or whatever, and have fun doing it. Chances are, there's a lot of other people out there who would enjoy it just as much. If it's reasonably priced, lots of people will buy it on impulse just because it strikes their fancy. It's daunting to get established, I know, it was and forever will be for everyone who tries to start any business anywhere, real life or second.

It can be discouraging not selling much for a little while, but every sale counts as advertising eventually. People will buy it, and if they like it, they'll show their friends who will go 'Ooooh.' and demand to know where they got it. You may not ever 'strike it rich' on SL, but getting SL to pay for your land tier and even give you spending money is a beautiful thing, and is pretty reasonable to accomplish. Put yourself in the find stores listing, take out a classified, hold some creative events at your place just to get people to show up. It all adds up.

A wonderful and thoughtful post that outlines many of the problems and pitfalls of new users trying to make ends meet in the face of the sacred caow that is the almighty exachange rate. If anyone wonders about new resident retention issues, they should read this post.

Well..... not quite. Although I agree with you that for residential usage, its hard to beat the deals to be had renting. (Because landlords can leverage the tier arbitage).

Keep in mind that a premium account affords you an additional L$450/week in stipend.

Carried over the course of a month, translated into USD - that's a rebate of about US$7 per month.

Considering that if you pay for your premium account for the year in advance (at $6/month) - its not neccesarily a cut & dry better deal to rent.

I asked a talented friend for a favor knowing his schedule was pretty tight. I felt bad taking up his time and hoped he could utilize this work in some other project he had on the back burner so that his time wouldn't be a total waste. He told me that nothing is ever wasted, it's all a learning process. Susanna, even if the things you make initially don't sell, it's not a failure but a stepping stone.

You see talented and successful people as your competetion and feel discouraged. Take a peak at the help these people provide in the technical forums and look at the tutorials which have been developed for beginners. I consider myself fortunate to have access to their knowledge and assistance. You describe yourself as a hobbyist. Check out the prices of classes for graphic design. I see one day seminars for $80-100 and classes for $350-$400.

You have skills. Now you need the belief that you are worth the initial investment to further that talent.

You're absolutely right.

Every script that didn't compile taught me valuable lessons. I went from being a scripting retard to being able to build and script my own stuff. Patience definitely helped me, though.

You have indeed discovered the biggest stumbling block in Second Life: the lack cost of property ownership

Land is the most important commodity in SL and the most expensive thing to maintain.

I tiered up to 2500m so I could set up a build I was working on, then asked myself, "Why am I spending $25 a month on this?"

Yes, it might have been successful, but at the same time, I feel like we're paying more than we should for land.

I would like to see the prim allotment on a sim doubled or and see the base tier at 1024m. Everything else would move down one notch on the price scale.

Add to that: The problem seems to be the fact that land fees are financing all the free accounts. So remove them. Get rid of basic accounts. Make people pay a small fee - $5 a month or so - for their basic access and then start the land ownership fees at $5 a month.

After really looking at the land I'd need to do what I was thinking about, I realized that it simply can't happen with my current financial situation. So I decided, "Why bother?" Add to that the fact that our favorite "protestor" is putting up more and more signs every day... and I find that I simply can't figure out any good reason to own land in SL.

I DO still have some property, but I'm selling it off as quickly as I can while not taking a total bath on the price.

In the meantime, I'm giving serious thought to expanding a 3D design program I built into a full VR environment. Who knows, maybe I'll build "Third Life."