No matter where people choose to go, the community will be split

... and that is what concerns me the most.

All of the people here, even those you may dislike, help to form the collective whole that is the SL forum community. We share information, we argue, maybe we bicker, and maybe some of us just plain don't like one another, but at the end of the day, the forums are ... were ... kept alive by the collective participation of this diverse group of people.

Now, the general consensus is that it's time to retreat to the third-party forums, but the problem there is that there are so many. Realistically, people are only likely to pay attention to one or two, so now we see some people going to Forum A, others to Forum B, still others to Forum C, and so on. And then there will be those who simply give up and stop trying to look at forums altogether, and of course there will probably be those who just go to the blogs.

Add it all up, and you have one seriously fragmented community, a former shadow of itself, if it survives at all. No matter where you go, will it really seem the same now, after having gotten accustomed to the usual cast of characters here?

Could it ever?

That is honestly what has made me sad about the closure of the discussion forums, the fact that everything will become fragmented. I think Cocoanut made an excellent point that is buried somewhere amongst one of these threads. The failure of these forums does not fall upon the users - it falls upon Linden Lab's wildly inconistent moderation of them that created an air of impunity for some while unfairly penalizing others.

I am not a fan of heavy handed moderation, and have a thick skin and don't mind a good fight here and there. However, I am even less of a fan of bias and wild inconsistency, which the moderators of these forums have shown for a long time. Part of the problem is that Linden Lab refused to ever put the proper resources in place to moderate the forums. Far busier sites are much more successfully moderated with less resources because the organizations behind them take it seriously and don't just view it with contempt.

Through LL's failure to provide consistent control of these forums and to intervene when things have become heated (not 2 days later by locking a thread), the whole community loses out by having them taken away. Third party sites, my own included, are not a replacement for a cohesive forum environment. I never created SLU to replace these forums, only to supplement them. A lot of sites have come out of the woodwork to capitalize on an opportunity, but it will be interesting to see how many really are in it for the long haul and if they will be willing to put the efforts into sustaining a healthy forum environment that LL failed so miserably on. No matter how successful any of these sites are, none will capture the cohesive feel of these forums, and more importantly, the shared voice of these forums - even if you try to duplicate them.

The "lack of community building" is something that has greatly concerned me, and the death of the forums only makes it worse.

Sure, there are furries, there are ageplayers, the Gor crowd... all separate communities that look after themselves, but as a general rule keep themselves to themselves, and rarely interact with other groups. The only exception to this would be the Greifer community.

I think it's a real shame that there isn't one collective voice, one thing that every single person can agree to, and no effort from Linden Lab to facilitate that.

One thing that always encouraged me about the TSO forums was that there was much more of a sense of community - even though the cities were separate, you knew people from other cities because of the forums, and often people would create temporary characters in the other cities just to go and say hello to someone they only knew as a forum name, because they seemed like a nice person (It's how I met my girlfriend, but its a long story for another day).

Although there are certain aspects of TSO that I miss and others I don't, I think the amount of friendship and concern for fellow players from TSO is one thing I really do miss here.

Lewis

Add to that the primary reason I visited the Official Forums, and "General" in particular: residents helping residents. No matter all the cries from people that "only a few use the Forums" there was rarely a day that a new or old resident didn't have a question that I or another user wasn't able to help.

New residents, particularly those involved in other online worlds (and even just other software products) turn first to anything official, be it a FAQ, Knowledgebase or Forums. Even the most jaded newcomer could find examples of others helping their own and take a chance on getting something simple or even complex answered.
Ultimately newer users will find Second Life a less hospitable place, even if they find a welcoming environment in a third-party forum.

I'm at the end of a move irl which has had me jumping between two homes for a few months. It is such a relief to have that situation drawing to a close and to be closing in on my goal of Concentrated Chaos. I want only one place to work on and in which to search for things in.

I've no motivation to jump from this place to that and see no way of picking one 3rd party forum. Not to mention all the new names; if these are SL related forums, just use your sl name, for pete's sake (and mine). The acceptance I had of this place in spite of the mess was that it was open to anyone and everyone. I don't want to be a guest, welcome or otherwise, in anyone's house. I just like to come down and hang out in the streets and see what's going on.

All these 3rd party sites remind me of the suburbs; communities but not the core of the city. I want to go downtown.

Agreed Alex, the community will be fragmented. Divide and conquer. There's a lot of, erm, older members who are very behind the closure. What was their price? Why are they so behind it, do they have something to gain?

i would like to ask your permission to make a harmless flirtation based on this quote that is somewhat crude, but humorous, but i don't want to spoil our 1st date if you get offended

Fire away. You cannot spoil a first date that is not happening.

now see, there you go again, playing hard to get

why dont you join me for some chat on our SC vent server...

you have no idea how well we might click, and niether do i

i am not asking for your hand in marraige, just the opportunity to get to know you

sometimes, people feel certain ways about certain people, and they know what it means

othertimes, people feel certain things about certain people and they have no idea ... what you are missing might be what you seek

i would never close doors forever in which i don't know whats on the other side

all i am offering is a chance to talk, person to person, away from the prying eyes of the community

is there inherent harm to that?

you know of me, we have shared some interesting times, but you do not know who i am, and i do not know who you are

that can be fixed

but be warned, I am very charming AND addictive to the lady that captures my fancy

PM me at SC or in SL for the vent server info, and we will set up a time

I completely agree. This is ultimately what makes me so sad about it. Linden Labs doesn't give a fuck about it or they'd respond to what they're doing and what they've been asked consistently not to do.

isn't the community already split between those that bother reading the forums and those that don't?

What eloquent words, written with thoughtful clarity and truth!

I said so many times over the past 2 years plus that evenhanded application of the rules matters more than the actual rules set into place by LL. The failure of the discussion forums is a clear reflection of moderation and management failure. A school would not close a classroom because there are some bad unruly children; they would replace the teacher with one having more competence. A community newspaper would not close because of too many hate filled letters to the editor; they would eliminate the problem ones.

Those of us who have been around a while have seen nasty trolls come and go, and when they leave there is always another unpleasant troll waiting in the wings. There will always be some unhappy, nasty person waiting to take sick pleasure from insulting or trashing another human being. The solution is to effectively eliminate those who abuse the process and not to silence the rest of people. The moderators were charged with this reponsibility and were unable to meet that challenge, so now we all lose.

What a great post Alex, missing people who I'm used to seeing around on the forums is my biggest worry with the closure of these forums. But I suppose its impossible, with all these third party forums that are about, to have one main forum ever again.

I'll be forced to talk to you all in world .

I didn't mean it to sound this flippant.

The community on the secondlife forums is, if nothing else, entertaining. I've no intention to go to any of the 3rd party forums and I will miss the usual banter that occurs here.

The one thing that seems to have unified this community, unfortunately, is the complaints about SecondLife, Linden Lab, staff, policies and their practices.

What started off as helpful devolved into a bunch of chat channels, little better than some of the chaos found on IRC.

It set the tone for new-comers to dive in and fling whatever was handy as well.

We can blame LL, ourselves, fate, or all three, but it won't fix this no-win situation. Even a combination of draconian moderating and hiring a bunch of public relations staff wouldn't succeed in cleaning up this mess now.

I will miss the forums, but the community of SecondLife is much larger than the population that is vocal or lurking here, and I'm confident it will survive and evolve one way or another.

Perhaps we merely outgrew the model and now it's time to break up into seperate zip-codes/area-codes and pick communities of interest based on something other than bitching at LL.

I think LL outgrew the idea of community. I think now they have the idea of Businesses Come to the Grid. That's a whole different thing.

coco

I agree. We've heard all the stuff about 'it's not scalable' - of course it's not when the only resources you're prepared to throw at it are a few volunteers. They didn't even try. Worse, they cut back on the resources they did throw at it at the same time it was growing rapidly. It went from having Jeska more or less on the case, to fobbing it off to the residents.

So then we have erratic and inconsistent moderation hand-in-hand with a huge influx of new users. It allowed a new tone to be set, at a time they should have been guiding its path. I'm getting kind of sick of reading that it's the resident's fault, that we behaved too badly, when the failing is all LL's, for not even attempting to manage it. Just a resmod program that was pretty much abandoned as soon as it was created, volunteers sent out with vague instructions and with no support. New posters had nothing to steer them in the right direction, old posters frustrated by the inconsistent moderation to the point where anger, resentment and frustration bred, till we reach where we are at today.

'It's not scalable' - bullshit. If it was viable to have someone on the job part time, when the world was smaller, residents were fewer, and revenue was a whole lot less, how is it not viable to put just one full time person on? Instead, they pull their resources. If they had set aside just the same proportion of their revenue/resources as they grew to manage the forums as they did in the past, they could have done a whole lot about it. They didn't, they did the reverse. When things grow larger, it often allows for a framework of resources to develop, and for them to be employed more efficiently. Adequate resources would have reaped rewards.

There's other things they could have tried. Why not spin off some new sub-forums out of general, take some of the heat of it? Why not think to at least try something?

I don't actually think they did this to shut us up. I think it happened, because of their management philosophy. The whole choose your own work, drop it when it's not fun thing. Sometimes (actually most of the time), you need to set clear goals, identify priorities... plan. How does 'do what you want' achieve that? The forums were no one's fun little project, it was a problem that no one was responsible for or instructed to solve. It was a total failing of flawed management.

Personally I am in two minds about the forums closing now ( especially after this weekend's spectacle )

I will miss ( or maybe a better phrase is "wont have" ) a single place to look in to see what's going on, and although I have signed up to most of the third party sites will not be looking though them every day to catch a piece of news.

Which is sad - not particularly for me, for I know where to look and what to either read or ignore, it's sad for any newcomers coming in or thinking of coming in - if they chose the first site they see they may just back away and say "NO WAY", or if they come in to what will be left of here they may say "it's geek land - all techi talk".

Part of me says it may be a good thing to lose this central forum, as the past has shown that no-one is able to control it effectively.
( And from Linden's decision to close the "hot" forums first it is obvious they do not wish to try anymore )

The moderation is either too harsh, or too soft.
People made claims of favouritism, then demanded to be treated differently themselves.
People reported posts which were locked and then complained their own posts were locked.
It became very fashionable to bite the hand that fed us - to insult the owner of the house we were staying in.
( yes I am guilty of all of the above too )

I think with the state of play in SL as it is, there are too many factions, too many differing opinions, too many tempers, to be able to exist peacefully in one place. ( at the moment )

If the forums were allowed to continue to exist as they were then the fighting would have continued and maybe people would have closed it themselves by using their feet instead of Linden pulling the plug - leaving the place to become a bed of hatred and insults.

I see people saying that the world of SL will never be the same place again, it will be fragmented and disorganised with no central place to go to air a concern.

For the immediate future that is almost certainly true - however I think that given time social gravity will do its work and one of the existing ( or possibly a new site ) will emerge as the front runner and a central forum will return again ( until it rips itself apart ) , then another will appear, and so on until someone does hit the right level of moderation and tolerance.

I am reminded of the closing talk of an English DJ years ago when informing his ( absolutely huge ) following that he was leaving the station forever.

"The world is like a bucket of water.
You can put your hand in it and after a time it seems that your hand belongs there, has always been there,
When it comes time to take your hand out you may thrash and splash, create waves and upset the water.
There will be mess, disruption, confusion and noise.
But remember,
After a time the water will settle and become calm again
It will seem to someone looking at the water like your hand was never there"

"Nothing and Nobody is irreplaceable"

( Apologies if the quote isn't word for word - this was a very long time ago and I never did write it down - but the sentiment stuck with me for some reason )

So I will be sad to see the forums go - but will be watching to see where the new place is, then will watch that with interest to see if it hits the right combination of content and control to survive, be helpful, and become a place to go.

All in my own opinion and words -
If you don't like them - try an experiment - try to read them all.
Try not to reply with the 1st phrase that comes to mind because you read half a sentence.
If you still don't like them - read the next post, and leave the flame where it belongs - in your own thoughts.
If you have a reply - think about it first - then post it.

With the forums closed and the community shattered, I guess we won't ever all get together and sing "Kumbaya" again.

One question that springs to mind.

If something as simple as a forum "isn't scaleable", how do Linden Lab propose to handle something as complex as a grid with a million residents online at the same time?

Try as hard as they might, Linden Lab aren't convincing anyone that the forums are 'too big for them to handle effectively'. Common sense would have seen more staff working on the forum, more sub-forums to cover subjects that appear frequently in "General", etc.

There were many quite simple solutions to "the forum issue". Dumping them was not one of them.

The official forums have not been replaced - blogs are no equivalent. Presumably as we have been paying for forum use as part of our account fees, we can see a reduction in our monthly costs as that facility is no longer provided?

Lewis

I still think it's a blow to the community to be losing the forums. There are probably more people who use them "properly" than there are who just come here to grief and troll. A few bad apples ruined it for the rest of us.

I guess I'll just go back to browsing porn instead.

I honestly believe Fade hit the nail on the head with the "Tao of Linden" analogy. That is what I was also feeling. How easy under a mentality in the workplace like that to say "I don't want to deal with the forum stuff anymore." Love machines and Taoisms can be pretty cool in their place. They have just come to the point now where it is all in office and no longer in world.

I can totally understand how the constant criticism could get to hurting their feelings. But out of the many posts here only a minority of them were the hateful stuff. Unfortunately they were at the hands of the ones that knew how to scream the loudest.

It reminds me of how I have sometimes dealt with my kids. You can be sitting there doing something that requires concentration and a couple will be acting up and being loud. You tell them to quiet down so you can concentrate and they keep it up. The nerves inside you are being plucked like strings and soon you find yourself saying "Everyone get in your room!" Sure, the couple that were loud got removed but so did the ones that were just watching tv and talking.

We are not children here though but some are certainly being made to feel like it.

Don't worry folks, I'll deal with it just fine!

This is pretty much how I feel it will end up. I might check out a couple of places, but I liked the diversity we had here, and that it was central, so it captured the whole forum community. I might check out SLU, I'm not sure, but I don't think my heart is in it enough to particpate much after this.

Half my friends list came from the forums, and of the other half, half of them are just clients... as nice as they are, they don't really count. I spend up to 10-12 hours a day building on islands where I can't get visitors, and the forums have been the way I've kept in touch, and form the majority of my communication. Remember when the forums where down for a few days not so long back? It felt so quiet in-world for me,I felt totally cut-off. I'm just not sure fractured third-party forums will fill that void. I'm totally bummed out about it.