Minutes of the RA Mtg Jan 25 2006

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Object-Name: Neualtenburg notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neualtenburg (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (196, 186, 177)

Meeting on 2006-01-25
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should be interesting ;)
Sudane Erato: I turned on the recorder
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, this is just a bit they're having to do... doesn't pay as well as the others, but hey, that's what trhe -multiple switch is for
Claude Desmoulins: Welcome to the first meeting of the fourth representative assembly.
Claude Desmoulins: Since Kendra will be late, we'll postpone the old business until she arrives.
Claude Desmoulins: First thing is the web site.
Claude Desmoulins: Many thanks to Gwyn and Aliasi for getting a web presence restored after Ulrika's departure.
Sudane Erato: yes!!!
Dianne Mechanique: yay!
Sudane Erato: and FlyingRoc too
Claude Desmoulins: I'm working on a MySQL database for citizens and land.
Aliasi Stonebender: like I said, I wasn't using it for anything, there' sjust times when having a bit of web space is handy and the bill was cheap, so I kept it up.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And pendari ? she got me the missing images & CSS
Aliasi Stonebender: I also uploaded my spidering to the FTP site, gwyn, in case pendari is missing anything
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* ty :) I noticed it ;)
Claude Desmoulins: What else do we desperately need on the website?
Flyingroc Chung: I dont know if the vendor still works without the website?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'd say, first step is to launch a "call for budgets"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And t works, FR, it only doesn't do any records.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, this would mean writing down some specs
Flyingroc Chung: plus we need a voting station ready at least before the next elections
Gwyneth Llewelyn: set up a budget for it
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: open up for people to propose them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: anonymously or something...
Claude Desmoulins: That's later on the agenda.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: have a public session and picking a winner based on some criteria.
Claude Desmoulins: Do we have what we need to have for right now?
Sudane Erato: well... I need the land data
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... barely, I'd say :(
Sudane Erato: available for new people
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: but I think we have that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: With redundancy as well, hehe
Sudane Erato: how is it updated?
Claude Desmoulins: I'm working on a land database. We can use Flyingrocs static page for the time being. Thanks, Flyingroc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can ask that to FR... what aliasi and myself copied, was purely a static page.
Sudane Erato: well... the source is my database
Dianne Mechanique: what technology woudl the site use? or does it use now?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No tech, Dianne.
Flyingroc Chung: well that page isnt exactly static
Sudane Erato: casuse the new people are signing oon with Rudeen
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, I think FR's deal is just processing Sudane's info, all it is, is a matter of automating that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just a static backup.
Dianne Mechanique: plone? SQL?
Dianne Mechanique: ah

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Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, ulrika did it all statically.
Claude Desmoulins: I know Ulrika used perl. I'm more of a PHP/MySQL person myself.
Dianne Mechanique: okay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm, perl just for the vendors, etc
Flyingroc Chung: I'm better at php
Aliasi Stonebender: As long as we have something to point people to that's accurate, I don't think it matters if we use carrier pigeons.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe. Yes, that's why we *need* to setup specifications
Dianne Mechanique: php/SQL is pretty much the standard isnt it?
Sudane Erato: hehe... they'd be inefficient :)
Claude Desmoulins: I think PHP/MySQL qould give us a bigger team of coders and maintainers.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Flyingroc Chung: wudane, in the previous system, when you change that text file, does it automatically reflect on the nburg site?
Claude Desmoulins: or at least potential coders/maintainers.
Sudane Erato: yes... Ulrikas site went out and grabbed it at intervals
Claude Desmoulins: Before people do all kinds of work....
Sudane Erato: fairly often
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, great.
Flyingroc Chung: ah
Flyingroc Chung: mine grabs it every time someone requests the page
Sudane Erato: oh!
Claude Desmoulins: ...would someone like to draft an RFP for the website that we could send out to the Gilde.
Sudane Erato: perfect
Sudane Erato: that would be great
Flyingroc Chung: so, it will update as soon as you do, sudane
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd be willing to put down a few notes, BUT I'll have only time for doing that on the weekend. Mind you, I'm biased ;)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn awaits Pendari
Sudane Erato: well... the idea is to get a decsription of the project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it seems she has *serious* trouble staying online for more than a few minutes at a time!
Sudane Erato: and then assemble a team
Sudane Erato: with a budget
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RFP can be pretty technical stuff ;)
Claude Desmoulins: Let's let Gwyn put together a draft spec and we'll discuss it at the next meeting.
Sudane Erato: ok
Claude Desmoulins: Any objections?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'd suggest working with Pendari, because I know she does that for a living as well.
Claude Desmoulins: Further website discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'd be glad to have more.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *people
Claude Desmoulins: I also do some of it in my real job.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let's have you on the team as well :)
Sudane Erato: why not circulate an email
Sudane Erato: with the document?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or use Aliasi's Wiki ;)
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah
Sudane Erato: yes!
Aliasi Stonebender: like I posted
Flyingroc Chung: yay wiki!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be great.
Claude Desmoulins: Great. This means I'll need an account :)
Aliasi Stonebender: anyone who wants to register, I can let you get a username... it's set to require a password to register.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me too :)
Aliasi Stonebender: so, this bit try to remember to edit out of the log
Sudane Erato: do you need to register to read it?

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Aliasi Stonebender: the password is "**********"
Aliasi Stonebender: nope
Aliasi Stonebender: you only need to register to edit
Sudane Erato: ok
Sudane Erato: I'll read for now
Claude Desmoulins: Next.....
Claude Desmoulins: .....A question about our procedures.
Claude Desmoulins: Many municipal governments in RL require multiple "readings" of a bill before it becomes law. Is this a good idea for us?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Multiple readings....
Sudane Erato: we had a set of procedures.... I wrote early on...
Sudane Erato: do they incorporate that?
Claude Desmoulins: I've never seen them.
Sudane Erato: ahhh....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. I have a notecard called "RA Procedures for Meetings"
Aliasi Stonebender: On the other hand, unlike many RL governments, we can use the forum and email and such to ensure all can see.
Sudane Erato: I'll have to find them
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah that's it Gwyn.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it's the approved one....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Sudane Erato: email and forum
Sudane Erato: could be a good "reading" format
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've dropped it into the penguin :)
Dianne Mechanique: well i am not a part of th eRA
Dianne Mechanique: but isnt a reading in RL
Dianne Mechanique: and actual reading of the document?
Dianne Mechanique: and we dont do that here at all really
Dianne Mechanique: speak it out like
Sudane Erato: no
Sudane Erato: we don't
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe no. It's faster to add the notecard on the transaction :)
Dianne Mechanique: just a thought
Diderot Mirabeau: excuse me for speaking while not yet a resident .. but I think a reading is when the members get to pass proposals for amendments and these amendments are reviewed to see if they can muster a majority?
Claude Desmoulins: I think Aliasi's right that the forums handle information dissermination, if we use them.
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Diderot Mirabeau: so a rather formal procedure
Dianne Mechanique: i think diderot is right too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well hmm, in a sense we do that all the time, but informally, I'd say.
Dianne Mechanique: opportunities for amendments
Dianne Mechanique: is the practical application
Claude Desmoulins: Let's leave it unless we have problems.
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, let's not make things more rigid than we have to.
Claude Desmoulins: Next.... election aftermath. Give me a momen here if you would....
Claude Desmoulins: My sense is that an appearence of conflict of interest was created by having a faction founder also be the single election administrator and the only person who could see 'under the hood'
Sudane Erato: yes!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Aliasi Stonebender: yep.
Aliasi Stonebender: although, to her credit, Ulrika seemed to play it straight, otherwise I don't think SDF would have been the minority party last go-round. ;)
Claude Desmoulins: But the first question is, does our commitment to not revealing RL identities in essence preclude our investigating 'irregularitiues'?

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Dianne Mechanique: thats a big kettle of fish :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ohhh
Sudane Erato: yes it is!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Walking on thin ice there, Claude!
Flyingroc Chung: you could design voting system
Flyingroc Chung: that is open-source...
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, one weakness of Ulrika's system is, being web-based, it went by IP.
Flyingroc Chung: thus, open to audit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, and everybody could audit the code.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ FR
Aliasi Stonebender: in a SL-based system, you can go by avatar.
Claude Desmoulins: If we do want to investigate 'irregularities' some entity must certify and examine election results before declaring winners.
Claude Desmoulins: The SC can do it themselves.....
Dianne Mechanique: well if you go with one avatar one vote
Flyingroc Chung: you want a commission on elections?
Dianne Mechanique: the "irregularities" mostly dissapear
Dianne Mechanique: which has been my position in the past
Aliasi Stonebender: The SC seems to be the most appropriate body for that.
Sudane Erato: thats right... raising the other issues
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Claude Desmoulins: .....or we could have an election commission to which each recognized faction appoints a member.
Dianne Mechanique: the SC is the judicial branch
Claude Desmoulins: Since the SC would decide any dispute, if they're willing to do election oversight directly, it saves a layer of bureaucracy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: An election comission is a good idea, although I also agree with FR's suggestion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And well, hmm
Sudane Erato: could I suugest that we ask for proposal and discuss them in the forums..?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Sudane Erato: this is a rather complex topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds reasonable :)
Claude Desmoulins: Any objection?
Sudane Erato: Claude, you could start the thread..
Claude Desmoulins: Will do.
Claude Desmoulins: Next, revenue, budgets etc.
Claude Desmoulins: In my forum post, I presented three possible revenue enhancement models.....
Claude Desmoulins: ....across the board hike in land fees, public/private partnerships with the city getting a revenue cut, or zoning...
Claude Desmoulins: ....the city into more zones to get a more granular land fee system with more than two rates.
Claude Desmoulins: Are there other ideas?
Sudane Erato: I prefer the zoned assessment system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: These are related mostly to land-based models, right?
Sudane Erato: more profitable zones pay higher fees
Flyingroc Chung: do we really need an increase in revenue?
Sudane Erato: not yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we do, FR. No expansion without more revenue :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Sudane Erato: but someday we will
Claude Desmoulins: If we're going to pay people to build voting systems, web sites, etc.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
Sudane Erato: thats true Claude
Dianne Mechanique: we should encourage more volounteer work :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Dianne, we *could*
Claude Desmoulins: That just caused heaps of trouble :)

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Sudane Erato: I've never been a big fan of volunteer work
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But actually this runs contrary to what the RA decided in the past. of course, things could get reverted.
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Dianne Mechanique: just a thought
Flyingroc Chung: I'm a huge fan of volunteer work :-P
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: People may of course volunteer, but they need to set it up in writing.
Dianne Mechanique: some people dont care about being paid so much
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I personally prefer to pay low wages, than no wages at all.
Aliasi Stonebender: Yeah, I mean, I'm doing a little "volunteer" work, as are others, but we're all explicitly saying so, rather than it being taken for granted.
Claude Desmoulins: So we don't have a repeat if someone changes their mond.
Sudane Erato: yes!
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Dianne Mechanique: best to have formal arrangements
Dianne Mechanique: i agree with Gwyn
Aliasi Stonebender: and that's it... if someone /wants/ to work for nothing, who are we to stop them?
Flyingroc Chung: I agree also
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, "formal arrangements" is what we're *good* at :)
Sudane Erato: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: but at the same time, we shouldn't make it the expected default.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: If we are to expand, we will need revenue. Since we want to have the funds before we spend them....
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: yes
Claude Desmoulins: ...we need to think about our revenue systems.
Dianne Mechanique: whata about the taxation idea?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: World Domination Now comes at a price :)
Dianne Mechanique: is that dead?
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Sudane Erato: :)
Dianne Mechanique: funny Gwyn
Flyingroc Chung: I had an idea for partially funding the next sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Flyingroc Chung: ...
Claude Desmoulins: Sudan has raised her concerns about the city taking portions of commercial revenues.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Claude Desmoulins: *Sudane
Sudane Erato: yes... I'm negative about a sales tax... which that is
Aliasi Stonebender: I also have one that may be Sudane's, too - we're competing against all theplaces in SL that DON'T have a sales tax.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why I asked before: should all revenue systems be based on "land"?
Sudane Erato: yes
Dianne Mechanique: thats true
Aliasi Stonebender: land/prims.
Flyingroc Chung: based on property
Sudane Erato: and I think they should
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, land/prims.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Dianne Mechanique: makes sense
Sudane Erato: land and prims are in direct relationship
Aliasi Stonebender: (since, really, one equals the other unless you're dividing a single plot for the use of several people.)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we vote on it? :)
Claude Desmoulins: My concern with zoned land fees is that it's taxarion by proximity. If your neighbor's business is wildly successful, your taxes go up.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Dianne Mechanique: thats true of RL though
Sudane Erato: thats true... and a valid problem

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Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed it is.
Sudane Erato: I think we need to agree on some principles
Claude Desmoulins: If we do a zoned system, here's a proposal....
Flyingroc Chung: well, if your business is not doing as well as your neighbor, you may still be able to sell your land for a higher price?
Sudane Erato: then I can draft some idaes
Sudane Erato: and we can refine them
Aliasi Stonebender: I'd prefer just a simple residential/commercial split, with commercial being a bit higher. I'm not sure "penalizing" people for being successful is a good idea.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I personally abstain from either decision :) I think both have advantages and disadvantages.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I agree that we should stick to one system...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let it run for a few months...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And evaluate :)
Sudane Erato: but... we must plan for ways to raise more funds
Dianne Mechanique: dont we need more zones?
Sudane Erato: I see
Dianne Mechanique: right now ther is city and country
Dianne Mechanique: but that does not necessarily equate to commercial
Dianne Mechanique: and residential
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, actually, nobody lives "inside" the city much.
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Dianne Mechanique: but an explicit commercial zone
Flyingroc Chung: should we rezone the entire city as commercial?
Dianne Mechanique: might be better
Dianne Mechanique: to justify the higher rate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was thinking of that, FR.
Sudane Erato: its is zoned at a higher rate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mostly commercial and event hosting.
Aliasi Stonebender: but not very much higher.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This would be bringing the ice rink inside the city walls...
Claude Desmoulins: I live in town.
Sudane Erato: about 40% higher
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and demolish half a dozen Fachwerks
Sudane Erato: 58.. 77
Sudane Erato: I think
Aliasi Stonebender: oh? heh. I hadn't done the math.
Dianne Mechanique: can one do business outside the city currently though?
Flyingroc Chung: no
Sudane Erato: no
Dianne Mechanique: ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, Kendra is sadly not here, but she suggested informally that we had a model with shops on the ground floor, apartments for rent on the first floor.
Sudane Erato: ahh... Claude's map :)
Sudane Erato: and if I recall... there were serious obstacles to the rental idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :) hehe
Dianne Mechanique: does anyone know who if anyone lives n the city?
Dianne Mechanique: or how many?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Satchmo...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eugene
Sudane Erato: about 8 - 12 people
Kazuhiko Shirakawa: I was going to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, Eugene has both plots inside and outside...
Flyingroc Chung: as I recall, kendra proposed that we actually sell the apartments like regular land plots... kind of like condos
Dianne Mechanique: cause why should those peopel pay commercial rates
Dianne Mechanique: if they have no store?
Sudane Erato: yes... it depends on what you mean by "live"
Claude Desmoulins: Can someone move my map to the middle of the roM?

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Sudane Erato: you need to share it
Sudane Erato: oh!
Flyingroc Chung: can you put it on the wiki?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the jug complicates things!!
Claude Desmoulins: Here's a draft zoning model.
Aliasi Stonebender: the jug is shared to group, should I move it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe perhaps, Aliasi!
Claude Desmoulins: Light blue are the plots with platz frontage (highest rate?)
Claude Desmoulins: Purple is Altenburg.
Claude Desmoulins: Dark red is a proposed University.
Flyingroc Chung: the schloss is part of altenburg?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww finally hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Orange - Gwynethstr.
Sudane Erato: no
Sudane Erato: not really
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and no, FR.
Sudane Erato: the Schloss is now abandoned land
Claude Desmoulins: It's a draft :)
Claude Desmoulins: pale red is the north sidel]
Sudane Erato: this is great Claude
Claude Desmoulins: Dark blue, everything else.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (there could be a complex explanation, FR, since Altenburg is 12th century, whereas the Schloss is 19th century ? but that's besides the point ;) )
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, I always DID want my own castle... >.>
Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww Aliasi!
Claude Desmoulins: I have a .png I'll put on the wiki.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll have it for the Scientific Council!
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Diderot Mirabeau: "Palais de Justice"
Sudane Erato: I hope the SC is rich :)
Flyingroc Chung: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll be.... we'll have the citizens pay fines
Flyingroc Chung: the SC can charge for legal opinion
Claude Desmoulins: That raises the question of what plots should be public land (or city supported to use Sudane's term)
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Dianne Mechanique: The SC should have a great Dark tower
Sudane Erato: *sigh*.... too much city-supported land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, sadly so.
Sudane Erato: one thing we must do Is privatize
Claude Desmoulins: Rathaus must be.
Sudane Erato: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: I *do* have a great Dark Tower, dianne. ;)
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Dianne Mechanique: thats right
Claude Desmoulins: If we don't want it dull of vendors, the Platz itself..
Claude Desmoulins: *full
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Sudane Erato: I feel we should seell the loots on the platz
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's another issue again.
Sudane Erato: but Kendra does not agree
Claude Desmoulins: Kirche and Schloss are debatable.
Flyingroc Chung: is the MoMA city-supported?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: MoCA.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Sudane Erato: well... the MoMa is in a complex arrangement
Dianne Mechanique: The Platz is the first thing people see
Flyingroc Chung: well it's MoMA on the map!
Dianne Mechanique: if it was a tacky mall
Sudane Erato: MoCa
Claude Desmoulins: It should be redone as a coffee house:)
Dianne Mechanique: that woudl be bad wouldnt it?
Aliasi Stonebender: I wouldn't mind keeping the platz itself clear, so the city can decorate.
Sudane Erato: so long as the coffee house pays Fee

7
Aliasi Stonebender: it'd also give us a bit of systemwide "prim slack".
Flyingroc Chung: I oppose burning the church down. lol
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Garnet Psaltery: Yay, coffee-house!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: me too, lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: MoCA - coffee house (bad pun)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Dianne Mechanique: the church could pay for itself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Claude Desmoulins: how?
Dianne Mechanique: as an event space couldn't it?
Sudane Erato: yes!
Claude Desmoulins: Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, I'll start accepting donations ;)
Flyingroc Chung: you need a collection basket in the church
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that will hardly work, but it's always worth a try...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or else, I'll fill it up with vendors ;)
Aliasi Stonebender: heh, if you need a donation pot Gwyn, I've got a spare, the kind I use for Primtionary. :)
Claude Desmoulins: The second part of this is....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just seriously ? SL is going to move to a new stage, where all events will be paid.
Claude Desmoulins: ....land which is city supported should remain with the Ramnutzung, no?
Sudane Erato: yes... it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, I'd like to have a few months until that is put in place by LL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree, Claude.
Claude Desmoulins: And objects should be owned by Rudeen or the Guldemeister?
Claude Desmoulins: *Gilde....
Sudane Erato: the Raumnutzung is the group owning all the City land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They could/should be set to group....
Sudane Erato: unsold lots as well
Sudane Erato: yes
Claude Desmoulins: For example....
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't think it matters who owns the objects, so long as they are (a) set to group and (b) set shared.
Sudane Erato: true
Aliasi Stonebender: anyone doing work on city-owned land can join the group as a member for the duration of the work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: BladeDancer owns the church building and its furnishings. I'v never seen him in world. If we wanted to make changes, could we?
Claude Desmoulins: we=the city
Aliasi Stonebender: I've seen BladeDancer on occasion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm I don't know, Claude, but Kendra always tells me she could do it.
Sudane Erato: I recently made one change
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I guess she has a way to keep in touch with BladeDancer.
Aliasi Stonebender: One could return sections and alter it as needed.
Sudane Erato: I saw Blade recently
Sudane Erato: but he's not here much
Dianne Mechanique: sorry folks I'm afraid i have to go
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, about time for me, too.
Flyingroc Chung: cya dianned
Dianne Mechanique: bye :)
Sudane Erato: bye guys!
Flyingroc Chung: dianne, even
Aliasi Stonebender: but I'll try to stay long enough to end this topic..
Flyingroc Chung: bye
Dianne Mechanique: see you later Sudane :)
Claude Desmoulins: I'll put the zoning map on the wiki/forums. Let's table.
Sudane Erato: yes :)
Sudane Erato: great Claude
Garnet Psaltery: Bye Dianne
Claude Desmoulins: Bye

8
Claude Desmoulins: Constitution/Legal revision.
Claude Desmoulins: Someone needs to gather all the existing documents.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *all* hmm
Aliasi Stonebender: I had a thread on the forum, still sticky, but hardly anybody's posted.
Claude Desmoulins: Only then can we draft new stuff,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I saw that, Aliasi :P
Aliasi Stonebender: Yeah, we don't have a good collection of posted laws.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True.
Sudane Erato: ahh... yes..
Sudane Erato: Pen has them tho
Claude Desmoulins: Or, for example, the RA procedues.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The forums are not good for that... the Wiki will be much better.
Aliasi Stonebender: Granted, with a wiki, it's easy to post...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Aliasi Stonebender: so get on Pen about that. :)
Sudane Erato: yes
Flyingroc Chung: yes, wiki!
Sudane Erato: yes
Claude Desmoulins: One everything is out, we can draft changes out of world.
Flyingroc Chung: acttually didnt the old website have sme of those documents?
Aliasi Stonebender: just have ot have a NburgLaw section or somesuch
Aliasi Stonebender: the old website had ONE law.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow, one? :) hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: and of course the constitution, covenants, etc.
Sudane Erato: yes...
Aliasi Stonebender: but none of the regular law the RA's passed.
Sudane Erato: those are all available
Claude Desmoulins: we need a section of laws, procedures, etc. Not everything has to me in the constitution.
Claude Desmoulins: *be
Sudane Erato: right... exactly
Claude Desmoulins: Where?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, the "founding" documents are fine, just the laws and the procedures are scattered among the forums.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, let's use the Wiki for now.
Aliasi Stonebender: well claude, like I said, just make a section on the Wiki.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And later, it'll have a section in the "Neualtenburg Portal".
Claude Desmoulins: I'm good with that.
Aliasi Stonebender: okay, I've got to skedaddle.
Claude Desmoulins: Bye.
Flyingroc Chung: bye aliasi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or even skedazzle :)
Sudane Erato: bye Aliasi
Garnet Psaltery: Bye all as well :o)
Claude Desmoulins: The next one is my pet project.
Sudane Erato: bye :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you Aliasi ? and remember, we have to talk a bit about the SC as well!
Diderot Mirabeau: bye
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, I emailed you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops. I should read that. ty.
Claude Desmoulins: Gwyn, who's going to replace you here?
Aliasi Stonebender: just let me know when we can do the formal in-world meeting.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Claude
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, we have a problem here.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Technically, it should be the "next in line"
Sudane Erato: oops... Kendra is on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But for that, we will have to have access to the election data.
Flyingroc Chung: as I understand it, you can be on more than one political body, but only vote in one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes FR
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Ulrika has to be replaced as Dean
Claude Desmoulins: Right

9
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the Dean cannot be in the RA.
Flyingroc Chung: ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Aliasi and myself will have a formal meeting
Claude Desmoulins: How about an SDF caucus to fill the seat, since we don't have election data?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we had already an informal one with a witness)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Claude ? I've talked to Eugene about it.
Sudane Erato: hi Kendra!
Kendra Bancroft: Hullo :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, *unless* Ulrika is "willing" to reveal any data
Flyingroc Chung: hey kendra
Claude Desmoulins: Hi.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi tehre Kendra
Kendra Bancroft: Just got home --then had to DL the new version
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ack yes.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: now that kendra is here...
Sudane Erato: Can I offer an official thanks?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!!!
Sudane Erato: for this wonderful new building!
Kendra Bancroft: :)
Claude Desmoulins: Absolutely.
Sudane Erato: Bravo!!
Kendra Bancroft: I'm so happy everyone likes it --I wanted everyone gathered for any suggestions before I put on the finishing touches
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sadly the recorder does not capture the sounds of cheering and clapping!!)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: so if anyone thinks of anything they'd like in here --do let me know
Kendra Bancroft: Kendra smiles ay Kaz
Sudane Erato: hehe... more camera space :)
Claude Desmoulins: A railing so we don't fall through the hole to the ground floor :)
Sudane Erato: haha
Flyingroc Chung: I want these chairs to turn into money chairs. :-P
Kendra Bancroft: yes --a railing would be good
Kendra Bancroft: I don't think I could get more camera space in here
Sudane Erato: I know
Kendra Bancroft: I actually thot it was pretty good
Sudane Erato: just joking :)
Flyingroc Chung: seriously though, it's already great like this
Sudane Erato: its great!
Claude Desmoulins: My next thing......
Kendra Bancroft: I'd like all the factions to send me banners
Kendra Bancroft: so I can place hanging faction banners downstairs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that would be cool hehe
Claude Desmoulins: How does one make a banner?
Sudane Erato: hmmmm
Kendra Bancroft: Just send me whatever texture you use for your signs --make it modifiab;e -I'll turn them into banners
Sudane Erato: great!
Claude Desmoulins: .....Universitat Neualtenburg.
Kendra Bancroft: Hope you don't mind if I jazz up the DPU a tad
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Go ahead. Just give me a copy back when you're done:)
Kendra Bancroft: will do Il Presidente
Claude Desmoulins: I needed a logo fast.
Flyingroc Chung: so, what is this nburg university thing?
Kendra Bancroft: As Gildemeister, Sudane --your main function at these meetings is to make sarcastic quips like I used to
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe... nooooo
Sudane Erato: things change
Sudane Erato: :)
Claude Desmoulins: Many entities say they want to do education here, but it's all scripting and building. Education is a natural service sector for SL.

10
Kendra Bancroft: Okay --then I'll still be the Quipmeister
Sudane Erato: shhhhh
Claude Desmoulins: Do a real continuing ed operation with classes in non SL subjects.
Claude Desmoulins: I do distance ed in real life, so I
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: it's a pet project.
Claude Desmoulins: I'm not ready to fund it, run it completely myself.
Sudane Erato: I have one building here that would be ideal
Claude Desmoulins: My propsed model goes somethinglike this....
Sudane Erato: for a contained class
Claude Desmoulins: Right.
Claude Desmoulins: Identify would be instructors and verify their RL credentials.
Kendra Bancroft: This would be for any type of classes?
Claude Desmoulins: Since the institution verifies the skills of the faculty, charge for classes.
Flyingroc Chung: sounds like it
Claude Desmoulins: City gets a cut, faculty member gets a cut, institution gets a cut.
Sudane Erato: hehe... sales tax :)
Claude Desmoulins: I think the logical spot to do it is to..
Kendra Bancroft: Interesting --does experience in RL tasks qualify --or are we using only accredited teachers?
Claude Desmoulins: ...Yes, sales tax.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claude, I put your old email to me on this on a notecard inside the penguin.
Claude Desmoulins: Experience counts. What do you mean by accredited?..... Higher ed usually requires post baccalaureate + 18 hrs in the discipline.
Claude Desmoulins: We put it on 2385 and 2410 Urusula weg, closing the street between them.
Kendra Bancroft: okay --so as a BFA employed as a working graphics artist for the last 20 years --I could teach photoshop?
Sudane Erato: interesting
Claude Desmoulins: Yes.
Sudane Erato: I have one person whos interested in 2385....
Claude Desmoulins: BTW most higher ed accrediting agencies have a RL mechanism like this.
Sudane Erato: but she's been interested for 2 months :(
Claude Desmoulins: That's why I wanted the idea on the table.
Sudane Erato: sure
Flyingroc Chung: Hm, why shouldnt this be a purely private institution?
Kendra Bancroft: well I'd be definately interested in teaching photoshop
Sudane Erato: great
Claude Desmoulins: I look around at SLCC/ Withnail Acad. etc. and none of them have so much as a class schedule or faculty list.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True.
Claude Desmoulins: It could be, I suppose. I think one could also view educational infrastructure as a public good.
Sudane Erato: hehe... all of NBurg is a public good... but that doen't pay the LL fee
Diderot Mirabeau: but then there should be discount on tuition for NeuAltenburg residents?
Claude Desmoulins: If the city chips in :)
Sudane Erato: :)
Kendra Bancroft: I imagine anything we can up with as incentives for citizenship is all to the good
Diderot Mirabeau: it could be a way to attract more cititzens ... it need not be large
Claude Desmoulins: Anyway, if anyone is interested in working on or investing in the project, please let me know. The land investment is about $25 USD
Kendra Bancroft: Count me in, Clause

11
Flyingroc Chung: Do you think that this venture would break-even at some point even without the city subsidy?
Kendra Bancroft: Claude
Sudane Erato: yes... me too
Claude Desmoulins: I certainly hope so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'd need a budget, of course.
Sudane Erato: and of course... the Guild be help in any appropriate way
Claude Desmoulins: E-mail me.
Claude Desmoulins: I also thought that a street change would require RA approval.
Kendra Bancroft: street change?
Sudane Erato: ahh... yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, Claude, in the proposal you suggest accreditation of the teachers. Does this mean you'd be considering some sort of a valid, legal, RL diploma or something for the students when they finish their courses?
Claude Desmoulins: No.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got your wrong, then :D
Claude Desmoulins: This is continuing ed, done for one's own enrichment. I don't want to deal withthe red tape of granting certificates RL.
Claude Desmoulins: If we want to, you'd need to partner with a RL institution.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see. Ok!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm just wondering.
Flyingroc Chung: You could give out a certificate... just not, hm, accredited
Gwyneth Llewelyn does RL education using SL hehe
Claude Desmoulins: I work for one of them, but I'm not ready to try to explain this idea to my RL higher ups :)
Pendari Lorentz: I'm In!! I'm walking!! DON"T SNEEZE!!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, FR
Sudane Erato: yay Pen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Pen!
Claude Desmoulins: What I meant by accredited was tthat the people running it would verify the teaching qualifications of the instructors.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Door is to the N side, Pen!
Claude Desmoulins: Thus backing up that the instruction was worth paying for.
Diderot Mirabeau: and perhaps there would also be an evaluation procedure after each class
Claude Desmoulins: Absolutely.
Sudane Erato: yes Claude... makes sense
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: Claude, i suggest that rather than changinging streets
Sudane Erato: that perhpas we build a building that arches over
Claude Desmoulins: Anyway, it's out there. COntact me if interested iin participating.
Sudane Erato: like an college quad
Claude Desmoulins: Good idea.
Sudane Erato: well... not a quad
Sudane Erato: but that idea
Claude Desmoulins: Although Urusulaweg doesn't go anywhere :)
Diderot Mirabeau: but what about the city's role in the project ... has that been sufficiently discussed at this stage?
Kendra Bancroft: Cool --College town --I'll build a pizza parlour in Altenburg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the city has a serious advantage here ? the legal framework.
Sudane Erato: no.... but changing the streets would be a difficult precedent
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alternative: blow up some "residential" quarters that are empty anyway ;)
Sudane Erato: actually thats true
Claude Desmoulins: I'd like the city to be a full blown partner, but I know how Sudane feels about sales tax :)

12
Sudane Erato: most of Sudanestrassse is empty
Sudane Erato: well you know my feelings...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes.
Sudane Erato: but really...
Sudane Erato: I am interested in whatever works
Flyingroc Chung: I too would rather see this succeed as a wholly private instituion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there are alternatives
Sudane Erato: I will argue a position
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Say, the City can sponsor scholarships.
Sudane Erato: but I will go with the decision
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the University would be private.
Diderot Mirabeau: scholarships for residents only or why would the city want to do that?
Claude Desmoulins: Attract citizens
Diderot Mirabeau: yes if that were the purpose it sounds like a good idea
Kendra Bancroft: We could always go Gorean, according to Mr, Lardner they're very succesful
Flyingroc Chung: yes they are
Claude Desmoulins: Let's table and let those of us interested hash out some things until the next meeting.
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol kendra :)
Claude Desmoulins: Kendra, let's do the embassy now. Where does Isenland want it?
Kendra Bancroft: Currently, Isenland is in Takalo --quite near where Neualtenburg used to be in Anzere
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Small world :)
Kendra Bancroft: I have quite a bit of land there to build it
Kendra Bancroft: about 1/2 of a SIM
Sudane Erato: !!
Kendra Bancroft: the rest is occupied --but I think a N'burg presence on the main grid would be a good thing
Sudane Erato: what would happen at this building?
Kendra Bancroft: well there are too options here --I'll throw them out for discussion
Kendra Bancroft: I've scaled back my presence in takalo - for water property in Funadama
Kendra Bancroft: Mostly cos I sell a snot load of boats
Kendra Bancroft: :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: anyways --The Viking presence has moved to Funadama in a small village I call Birka
Diderot Mirabeau: Viking?
Kendra Bancroft: At this point it would make more sense for a N'burg embassy in Birka
Kendra Bancroft: not Isenland
Claude Desmoulins: I guess my question was, Do you want a Birka embassy here?
Kendra Bancroft: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Where?
Kendra Bancroft: I would put it in Altenburg most likely
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Near the cabaret?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... there goes the esplanade, lol
Claude Desmoulins: Since you already own that, the city doesn't need to do anything, does it?
Kendra Bancroft: yes --I have tentatively built a wooden stabbur (log cabin) on the canal for the emvassy site
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the "embassy" is just a first step
Sudane Erato: but I presume that the city would have to pay for the embassy in Birka?
Kendra Bancroft: I could do this without City involvement true
Gwyneth Llewelyn: into promotion of N'burg in more places, and vice.versa.
Kendra Bancroft: But I would prefer to bring some of the N'burg Government workings to Birka --as I plan to have citizens of the Viking Village
Claude Desmoulins: OK. Let's put the topic of creating a Foreign Ministry in the RA pipeline.

13
Kendra Bancroft: and would like the use of N'burg's legal apparatus
Sudane Erato: yes... i agree
Kendra Bancroft: So that in fact --Birka would become a protectorate of N'burg
Kendra Bancroft: in exchange for a location here
Sudane Erato: omg!
Claude Desmoulins: That would give us mainland presence.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A protectorate!
Kendra Bancroft: exactly, Clause
Sudane Erato: hehe
Kendra Bancroft: Claude
Sudane Erato: what will it cost???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wow... that is really wonderful :)
Kendra Bancroft: This is what needs hashing out
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: how many people live there, Kendra??
Kendra Bancroft: But I'd like to implement N'burg's deed system in Birka
Kendra Bancroft: none yet
Kendra Bancroft: I don't wish to begin until I know that I have N'burg support
Claude Desmoulins: On a tangent we had talked about installing notary desks here.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Ok. Wrong question ? how many are able to live there?
Kendra Bancroft: There is room for about 8 citizens in Birka
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, you see, that'll earn them a vote on the RA!
Kendra Bancroft: If I did this in Isenland instead --I'd say 20 max
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we'll have a representative from Birka... hehe
Kendra Bancroft: But I wish to start small
Claude Desmoulins: Or would Birka have their own RA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: With just 8 people??
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe even direct democracy (town hall meetings) with only 8
Diderot Mirabeau: maybe both .. that's how we treat protectorates in my country
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh. Hmm. Well.
Kendra Bancroft: Birka would run as it's own Artist's Guild essentially and use N'burg's SC and RA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew, that needs much more thought.
Sudane Erato: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm all for the whole concept, hehe
Kendra Bancroft: The covenant rules will all apply --except it's Viking themed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's no problem at all.
Sudane Erato: it certainly is interesting...
Kendra Bancroft: It's aim is to take over Funadama Island
Kendra Bancroft: haha
Diderot Mirabeau: by pillage and plunder :-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We already have two covenants in N'burg, and the proposal today demanded many more!
Kendra Bancroft: well ---yeah
Kendra Bancroft: But I want to investigate this mostly as a way to test whether N'burg's set-up is franchisable
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn supports that idea completely :)
Kendra Bancroft: I think if we wish to do this --it's best to get the bugs out on a small level
Kendra Bancroft: Hence --Birka
Sudane Erato: interesting
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: I'm interested , why don't you draw up a fleshed out proposal.
Kendra Bancroft: The ultimate goal is for Birka to one day become an Island SIM
Kendra Bancroft: but again --start small
Kendra Bancroft: and I'd prefer to stay on the main grid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: More accounting for the Guild ? now, add an extra cost centre, or whatever it's called over there... :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, kendra.

14
Sudane Erato: hehe...
Sudane Erato: *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, it'll give future citizens a *choice*.
Claude Desmoulins: Especially as to the RA question, are the Birkese full citizens,. or does Birka have a set number of RA seats.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. some may not like private islands, or the bavarian theme...
Kendra Bancroft: Needless to say there will be one N'burg building in Birka to serve as an trading post/Embassy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that should be *the* question, Claude!
Kendra Bancroft: As I say --for the moment, Birka would be under the RA and SC of N'burg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A protectorate ? a federation ? a confederation ? a union ? or a province?
Kendra Bancroft: and function as it's own Guild
Gwyneth Llewelyn is delighted!
Kendra Bancroft: a colony really
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A COLONY!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Sudane Erato: slave labor :)
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, but do citizens in Birka voter in our election....
Kendra Bancroft: uhm --No
Kendra Bancroft: That's a good question
Kendra Bancroft: I'd say no
Flyingroc Chung: why not full citizenship?
Claude Desmoulins: .....or do they have their own election for one or two seats in our RA
Kendra Bancroft: They have voice in their Guild elections
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm seeing Prokofy's next post: "Now the left-wing terrorists of Neualtenburg became Socialist Imperialists ? they are setting COLONIES in the mainland, for God's sake! What will come next???"
Sudane Erato: lol
Sudane Erato: hahahahha
Kendra Bancroft: yes --prok will have a field day with this
Diderot Mirabeau: but how myuch of the Neualtenburg model are you then testing for franchiseability if you do not export the democracy part outside the guild system?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Diderot.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They should be citizens, and vote for the RA, get appointed to the SC
Kendra Bancroft: As Birka grows --it can cover the remaining brances on Independance
Diderot Mirabeau: fair enough .. you've got to start somewhere
Claude Desmoulins: Kendra, bring it back in more detail and we'll hash out the specifics.
Kendra Bancroft: But it's size would limit that for now
Sudane Erato: yes
Diderot Mirabeau: make it manageable
Sudane Erato: I agree Claude
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* yes yes
Kendra Bancroft: Yes --I'll draw up a proposal for next week
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent :)
Claude Desmoulins: Last thing....
Kendra Bancroft: Though I might have Nisse make the presentation ;)
Claude Desmoulins: Even though there's no money to expand right now.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, one of the agenda points for the SC to philosophise about in the next few weeks will be the concept of "citizenship in Neualtenburg"
Flyingroc Chung: I wonder if this equires a consti amendment
Kendra Bancroft: as he will be the "face" of Birka
Diderot Mirabeau: Nisse ... lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or should we talk about the "Neualtenburg federation"? :)
Claude Desmoulins: We could still start the process of planning.

15
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Confederatio Neualtenburgia.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just like Switzerland and Lichtenstein :)
Kendra Bancroft: Perhaps the proposal should be made to the SC first?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm well.
Claude Desmoulins: Have you read my forum post on expansion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SC does not make the amendments, thogh
Kendra Bancroft: No --but they are needed to help forge the status of a Birka citizen under N'burg governance
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes yes.
Kendra Bancroft: Birka, like most viking villages would essentially be a corporatist oligarchy under the leadership of a chieftain (analogius to the Gildemeister)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sorry, Claude, I think I'm well behind your posts :P
Claude Desmoulins: Unless that status is made explicit by the RA when this thing is set up.
Sudane Erato: I must leave in 10 min
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the Sc can help.
Flyingroc Chung: Hm, I think what needs to be made clear is what sort of representation Birka citizens would have in nburg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, and what sorts of responsabilities, etc
Kendra Bancroft: Yes --but that's for N'burg to hash out
Kendra Bancroft: I'll be giving you the mechanics of Birka
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok :)
Flyingroc Chung: then there is also the related problem of what sanctions nburg can mete out to birka citizens... for example, do the expulsion rules apply?
Kendra Bancroft: Birka is at this point an empty village in search of mechanism
Kendra Bancroft: yes, Roc --they would --that's the point
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Claude Desmoulins: Dropped an expansion notecard onthe penguin.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I think that's workable.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah thank you Claude!
Kendra Bancroft: essentially I'd like it to be extra real estate for N'burg
Claude Desmoulins: There's no reason we couldn't invite proposals for the second sim before we commit $
Kendra Bancroft: so pushing for a vote would perhaps be a movement in Birka
Kendra Bancroft: but one that N'burg won't grant lightly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hmm can't get your notecard, Claude)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But since you've mentioned the 2nd sim
Sudane Erato: i can't either
Kendra Bancroft: This could prove to be an excellent way to hash out 2nd SIM details
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure if you have seen that last post of Melanie's
Sudane Erato: Melina, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol yes ? sorry, I stand corrected!
Sudane Erato: Moomf Murray is selling a sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She basically pointed out that there are more people selling 2nd hand sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: but we knew there is a market, right?
Kendra Bancroft: I think there will always be a market for used sims
Sudane Erato: graet!
Sudane Erato: got it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'd say we should postpone that?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah drats ? sorry Claude, I have to go off Busy mode!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
Claude Desmoulins: There.
Flyingroc Chung: yay for the marketing part, claude
Sudane Erato: folks... I'll have to leave....

16
Sudane Erato: and either take the recorder
Kendra Bancroft: Okay, Gildemeister :)
Claude Desmoulins: There's no reason we couldn't seek proposals now.
Sudane Erato: or show someone how to turn it off
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.
Claude Desmoulins: Go aheads and take it. We won't do any more business.
Kendra Bancroft: Sudane --let;s set up a meeting soon so we can hash out the Chamber of Commerce stuff
Sudane Erato: so we are adjourned?
Flyingroc Chung: the proposal should include the cost of building the sim, yes?
Sudane Erato: yes Kendra!
Claude Desmoulins: Same time next week.
Claude Desmoulins: Yes,
Sudane Erato: great
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right :)
The meeting closed at 16:58 Linden time.

It would be useful for someone who attended the meeting to draw minutes ... which usually means a summary of who attended, what was proposed, what the gist of the discussion was, and what was decided. Usually a page or two (250-500 words).

What you've posted is a raw transcript ... while a useful record, a daunting document for those interested in what happened without the associated conversations.

Sorry... my mistake. Yes, they are not minutes, but rather the transcript.

This is the customary material that is reported out from all meetings, in fact from most all SL events. Obviously, it provides an unedited "recording" of the proceedings of the meeting. This has the disadvantage, as you say, of being hard to consume; in a sense, one must relive thru the experience of the meeting (altho you can read thru it much faster than the meeting took). It has the advantage that it is not "interpreted" by the note taker, risking omitting portions which the note taker felt insignificant but the reader otherwise. It also has the advantage that it requires no other labor than running the chat recorder and then clipping and pasting the emails to the forum; labor is at a premium in NBurg.

On the other hand, you are not only welcomed, I would say that we would be extremely enthusiastic to have you attend and produce such a document. Of course, by strict rules of procedure, for the RA to adopt it as official "minutes" they would have to "accept" them at the next meeting.


Sudane

Frank,

Your point is taken. However:

1) Technology now makes producing and distributing a full record of a meeting easier than producing summaries.

2) By posting a transcript, we allow observers like yourself to see the (almost) raw data ( there was one password removed) and draw your own conclusions about what took place rather than relying on someone's filtered version.

I hope there will be a small summary of actions taken posted later. I just have to find time to do it.

Reading the transcript is still faster than sitting through a meeting. I seriously thought about attending, but just don't have the time. Also the full transcript has the advantage of conveying nuance. That's the first thing sacrificed in a summary. It's interesting to breeze through a transcript enlivened by gems like:

I read the transcript. A lot of people talking at once.

I still can't tell:
* what was merely discussed and what was decided
* what "action assignments" came out of it.

Perhaps I'm just not sensing the "gestalt" of an outcome and a basis for accountability here.

And beware of Vikings. Remember Jarvick ... er, York, once the capital of Viking Britain. They may have ambitions on N'alt and Fundamaland. All they need is a beach-head, their long boats start ranging up the rivers, and there goes the neighborhood.

I'd also appreciate minutes. It would let me stay on top of Neualt better. But I understand it's time consuming and best to just get a transcript out there first. Maybe someone else can step to the plate and summarize?

*sigh* Come on you guys! If you want to understand the gestalt of the community of Neualtenburg today, you've got to participate!

The detailed analysis and consideration of issues which face us which you've both done in the past have been invaluable outside perspectives on what we're doing here. They've confirmed to me, at least, that the assumptions I have which have driven the steps I've taken have been in many respects good ones; I hope other participants have gained similiarly helpful insights from your comments.

But if you're combing thru the transcripts to extract the "decisions" and the "action assignments" identified as "DECISION 1", "ASSIGNMENT 6", you're not going to find them. Many meetings they don't happen. Sometimes they do. Without any question, however, the meeting Wednesday night was a great shot of confidence in the community. I commend Claude for doing an extraordinary job in a difficult role; for introducing a raft of great proposals which would never have been taken seriously under previous conditions. Numerous conversations have taken up from that meeting; numerous proposals are and will take shape from the fact that members of the community sat together for two hours and brainstormed regading the issues facing us. Some of those participants had just "walked in the door" of the NBurg community. Others were individuals who would never be sitting at that table were Ulrika still here. This was an extraordinary meeting.

You cannot, repeat, you cannot extract the "gesalt" of a community and the concrete direction that meetings like that one enable from reading the transcript, much less from reading the minutes.

Let me ask either one of you. Have either of you attended School Board meetings, Community Board meetings, apartment co-op board meetings? If you have, might I ask for your analysis of the relative significance of proceedings as conveyed in a hypotheical transcript as opposed to the content of the actual behavior and expressions of the participants? I live in New York City and have frequently attended such events (not always willingly ). I would suggest that there is no contest to the assertion that the transcript conveys a miniscule fraction of the substance of a "grass roots" meeting, which surely Neualtenburg qualifies as.

I fall back to my frequently expressed conviction. Democracy is like sex: it is messy and produces uncertain results. But, indeed, it does work.

Come on guys. Attend the meetings. You are not permitted to speak unless you join the community (which you are fervently invited to do). But your comments have been invaluable before, and would surely be beneficial going forward.


Sudane

I'm waiting for an offer from Kendra. I want to bring mechanism to Birka! I'll even make a viking hat thing. : P

I have not attended any of those meetings, nor am I a citizen, landowner, bondholder or investor in Neualtenburg. Just an observer and commentator with limited time and attention span, who offers some thoughts that you may or may not find useful.