Neualtenburg Civics Class Log

Neualtenburg Civics Class Log - Part 1 of 3

Aliasi Stonebender: anyway, let's start,
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: The point of this class, basically, is to explain exactly what Neualtenburg is (and isn't), and how it runs, since this appears to be not as well known as we'd like.
Aliasi Stonebender: we, of course, being me and the mouse in my pocket. *grin*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha !
Aliasi Stonebender: Anyway, Neualtenburg, in its current incarnation, is a self-governed community in SL.
Aliasi Stonebender: the idea is, instead of havign a private sim owned by someone you rent from, and thus live under their whim
Aliasi Stonebender: or the mostly-anarchy with touches of absolute despotism that is the main grid
Aliasi Stonebender: you have a sim that is co-operatively owned and run.
Aliasi Stonebender: the other aspect, of course, is the WAY it's run
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Speeddude Geer 229m West (6m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: which is a representative democracy, but of a kind somewhat untried in the real world.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Philo Sion: Representative?
<b><u>Philo Sion</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Broken Templar 88m North (37m up) . [/color]
Philo Sion: Why representative?
Aliasi Stonebender: Well Philo
Aliasi Stonebender: the original incarnation of Neualtenburg had over 100 people.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True
Aliasi Stonebender: YOU try getting 100 people online at the same time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Philo Sion: Do you do a consensus voting system or a binary one? Because that's only a good reason if you're using consensus.
Kage Seraph: As a point of order, would you like us to hold questions to the end, or holler?
<b><u>Kage Seraph</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Zig Quasimodo 87m North (17m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: If you could hold them, sicne I'll probabyl answer many.. but feel free to holler if you're totally confused.
Philo Sion: Sorry :/
Aliasi Stonebender: Null sheen, Philo.
Aliasi Stonebender: but I WILL get to that, it's a cornerstone of the talk in fact.
Frans Charming: lol
Aliasi Stonebender: DOH!
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent timing, you guys
Kage Seraph: are we about to get unseated?
Aliasi Stonebender: there
Aliasi Stonebender: it's all good now.
Kanker Greenacre: thanks aliasi
Aliasi Stonebender: anyway
Tryggvi Olafson: : )
Aliasi Stonebender: let me first explain the dual-nature of Neualten in detail
Aliasi Stonebender: a cooperative community isn't realyl a new concept in SL.
Aliasi Stonebender: There are many friends who band together, and even larger projects such as Luskwood.
Aliasi Stonebender: and they're all good!
Aliasi Stonebender: the difference is, Neualtenburg has a real-life presence.
Aliasi Stonebender: there is a reall, legally-registered Neualtenburg Inc, a non-profit organization.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm wellllll
Aliasi Stonebender: Oh? Am I mistaken Gwyn? Ulrika lists that on the webpage....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's say Ulrika is sometimes a bit over-enthusiastic
Eelco Byrne: hehehe
Aliasi Stonebender: Indeed. Well, anyway. there's that aspect of Neualtenburg.
Aliasi Stonebender: Then there is the SL aspect.
Aliasi Stonebender: Where it is run as a virtual city, complete with government. Now, it may seem complex for such a relatively small thing as N-burg is now, but as I've said
Aliasi Stonebender: (a) it was made to accomodate a much larger number, and (b) we're here for the long haul; we're even making plans for a second sim (although that is still quite a few months off).
Aliasi Stonebender: Anyway, Neualtenburg has 3 important legal documents.
Aliasi Stonebender: the Terms of Service are like any other Terms of Service you might have seen. In fact, a lot of the language was cribbed from LL's own ToS.
Osprey Therian: is the tos blank_
Aliasi Stonebender: it shouldn't be.
Osprey Therian: can´t see it
Philo Sion: same
Aliasi Stonebender: may take awhile to load Osprey.
Aliasi Stonebender: hm, you're right.
Aliasi Stonebender: hm
Aliasi Stonebender: I save it, but it opens up blank again.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, slow asset server.
Osprey Therian: got it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: With all the Lindens getting drunk in New York... hehe
Osprey Therian: ÑD
Aliasi Stonebender: ah, that does explain it.
Aliasi Stonebender: anyway
Aliasi Stonebender: The language of the ToS, as said, is largely the same. "If it breaks, it isn't our fault".
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: The document that's more immediately important
Aliasi Stonebender: is the Neualtenburg Constiution.
Aliasi Stonebender: Which actually describes how we run the city.
Aliasi Stonebender: If someone joined Neualtenburg, they're expected to read this and the covenant and agree to abide by them.
Aliasi Stonebender: The Neualtenburg city government is divided into three branches.
Aliasi Stonebender: The Representitive, the Artisanal, and the Philosophical.
Aliasi Stonebender: these aren't just fancy names for ones like the US government
Aliasi Stonebender: but have unique SL-specific functions.
Aliasi Stonebender: The Representative is comprised of the Representative Assembly, which is our "city council"
Aliasi Stonebender: They pass laws, promote the city, and generally lay down the long-term planning.
Aliasi Stonebender: As the name implies, it is voted for democratically. the manner is closer to that used in parlimentary elections, not like US congressional ones.
Aliasi Stonebender: each citizen may belong to a declared "faction", and votes according to preference in their faction for candidates
Aliasi Stonebender: and among all the factions in order of preference.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, for example, our main parties now are the "Social Democratic Faction"
Aliasi Stonebender: and the "Moderate People's Party"
Aliasi Stonebender: I am in the MPP.
Kanker Greenacre: are you down with MPP?
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: So when I vote, I vote for all the candiates in the MPP, then I vote for the factions running in order.
Aliasi Stonebender: The end result is instead fo a "first with most votes wins" system, you get one where even a minority party is likely to have a vote
Aliasi Stonebender: This is a gross oversimplification of the system, mind, but if you want to know all about the system, Google it.
Aliasi Stonebender: The RA is currently 5 people.
Flyingroc Chung: Can one be an indifferent citizen?
Aliasi Stonebender: yes!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (note: RA is the Representative Assembly)
Aliasi Stonebender: you can be independant... you can't vote within a faction, but you can still vote for the factiosn themselves in order of least dislike.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Osprey Therian: What percentage of residents vote?
Aliasi Stonebender: Also, it's very easy to start a faction
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, last election? 100%.
Osprey Therian:
Frans Charming: wooha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The one before last, hmm, 30% or so
Aliasi Stonebender: although we expect a higher turnout in "Neualtenburg 2.0" overall
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Aliasi Stonebender: the original incarnation was a main-grid city under a Linden-granted deed.
Osprey Therian: I remember
Aliasi Stonebender: the current one, everybody is a "stakeholder" by buying land.
Frans Charming: hehe
Flyingroc Chung: you cant be citizen wihtout owning land?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Flyingroc.
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't know about you, I want to knwo what the yahoos are doign with my money.
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, since the point of Neualtenburg is to co-operatively own a private sim, ownign a bit of land is kind of important to the equation.
Aliasi Stonebender: well, *a* point.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Citizenship is mostly defined as "owning a part" of the City...
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, the second branch
Aliasi Stonebender: is where things get interesting.
Aliasi Stonebender: the "Artisanial" branch, which is also known as "the Guild", is the "treasury" and "good-producing" sector.
Aliasi Stonebender: if you wish to sell things in Neualtenburg, you must be a member of the Guild, (save for some special events where we have stalls available for anyone to rent.)
Aliasi Stonebender: As a consequence, around half of the citizenry currently are in the Guild. it is the most eglatarian part of the government.
Aliasi Stonebender: However, that isn't the sold province... anyone who does anything that "improves" the city can be in the Guild. If you habitually run events, for example.
Aliasi Stonebender: *sole
Aliasi Stonebender: But by and large, it's creators and builders.
Aliasi Stonebender: The Guild itself is organized... like a guild. there are apprentices, journeymen, and masters... with a Guildmaster at the top.
Aliasi Stonebender: For most of the governmental roles, the Guildmaster is the sole member. However, every election cycle the masters elect a Guildmaster, and any Guild member can be removed with a 2/3rd vote of the entire Guild.
Aliasi Stonebender: So it operates as a sort of "corporation", with the masters acting as a "board of directors".
Aliasi Stonebender: Aside form the governmental roles, the Guild is also the method the collective creative might of Neualtenburg can deal with the "outside world".
Flyingroc Chung: If you're a guild member and got booted out, does that mean ur not allowed to sell stuff in nberg anymore?
Aliasi Stonebender: That's so, but keep in mind it's intentionalyl designed ot be very difficult to remove anyone.
Aliasi Stonebender: a 2/3rd vote means you basically have to piss off everybody.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
Aliasi Stonebender: So,the Guild's day to day functions
Osprey Therian: How may a resident become a member in the first place? Before getting the boot
Aliasi Stonebender: You find a master willing to sponsor you.
Tryggvi Olafson: are the ranks merely corporate titles, or is there an educational responsibility down the ranks as in a real guild?
Aliasi Stonebender: I, by the way, am a master.
Aliasi Stonebender: It is assumed you will, but there is no explicit rule about it.
Aliasi Stonebender: on the other hand, a master who isn't actively helping people isnt likely to get much support when they want to do something.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's usual that a master sets a task/project for the apprentice to accomplish... and oversees the work.
Tryggvi Olafson: <nods>
Flyingroc Chung: is that before, or after the master takes the apprentice in?
Frans Charming: And that would be a task in the benefit of n'burg?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully
Aliasi Stonebender: After, yes, and yes.
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, on to the last branch
Flyingroc Chung: wait, so the guildmaster, does he have a seat in the RA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.
Aliasi Stonebender: the "Philosophical" branch, or "Scientific Council", acts mostly as a Supreme Court, with a veto-like power for laws.
Osprey Therian: How many sit?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 5 members at the RA, Osprey. At least for now.
Aliasi Stonebender: No, but the Guildmaster usually attends the RA. In Kendra's case, it's usually to complain how the RA is disrespecting all of the creators.
Aliasi Stonebender: But she does a good job of it.
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, 5 in the RA
Frans Charming: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes — *anyone* (even non-citizens) may attend the RA meetings. Citizens are allowed to speak as well.
Flyingroc Chung: how many in the philosophicl branch?
Osprey Therian: I meant the Philosophical branch
Aliasi Stonebender: whereas the Scientific Council has a maximum of nine chairs.
Osprey Therian: ok
Aliasi Stonebender: there is no requirement that they all be filled, however, and we only have 2 currently.
Aliasi Stonebender: It is a "self selected meritocracy", in that new SC members are picked by the current ones. Lest they get hout of hand, the SC can vote out members with a 2/3rd majority, and the Guildmaster can seek to impeach members of the SC who act improperly.
Aliasi Stonebender: So can the RA.
Flyingroc Chung: who are the 2?
Aliasi Stonebender: Currenrly, Ulrika and Gwyn there.
Aliasi Stonebender: Ulrika being the head.
Frans Charming: man, i could have won money on that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
Aliasi Stonebender: That said
Sudane Erato:
Flyingroc Chung: so if the two of you disagree, do you battle it out in rausch, or something?
Aliasi Stonebender: Well
Frans Charming: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We email each other to death, Flyingroc
Aliasi Stonebender: Gwyn is currently on the RA, so she cant' vote, but she retains her seat at the SC.
Kage Seraph: so the SC is a committee of one.
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, yes. You can be a "part" of any of the branches, but only have "decision power" on one.
Aliasi Stonebender: Currently, and believe me, that's something we talk about ourselves.
Aliasi Stonebender: However, the SC has yet to actually have to do much of anything. It exists to ensure any laws are constitutional and also can act as a mediator in citizen disputes.

Neualtenburg Civics Class Log - Part 2 of 3

Aliasi Stonebender: However, none of our laws have come close to that as of yet, and we get along disgustingly well, soo....
Sudane Erato: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, we had a veto once, but that was quite a while ago
Aliasi Stonebender: Well Gwyn
Flyingroc Chung: so how many citizens does nburg have, currently?
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm speaking mostly of Neualtenburg 2.0, remember, I wasn't around for 1.0.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One in perhaps a hundred bills...
Kanker Greenacre: you can search for n'berg under groups, flyingroc
Aliasi Stonebender: twenty-three, currently.
Aliasi Stonebender: The Neualtenburg group isn't accurate, since it was for the original project.
Kanker Greenacre: do you have a current group?
Flyingroc Chung: Um, sort of complicated for 23 people, no?
Aliasi Stonebender: There is no overarching Neualtenburg group.
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes Flying, but we aren't going to *stay* at 23 people.
Kage Seraph: Flying: N'burg is architected for bigger things.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bureaucracy is our middle name, Flyingroc
Aliasi Stonebender: We've had some pretty incredible growth since we opened as a private sim
Osprey Therian: It's more an insider view to government, though, as an experiment
Aliasi Stonebender: and we still have people asking about joining
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, thus the eventual second sim....
Flyingroc Chung: growth is easy if you ahve 10 members....
Aliasi Stonebender: So I expect the day 2.0 exceeds 1.0 in citizenry to come sooner, rather than later.
Aliasi Stonebender: That said
Aliasi Stonebender: I do understand your objections, and if it makes you feel better
Aliasi Stonebender: *I'M* one of the people agitating for as little bureaucracy as possible. *grin*
Osprey Therian:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Flyingroc Chung: heh
Aliasi Stonebender: But as it is, I think it's a good, sturdy footprint for a virtual city
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no escaping *some* of it, though. Like accounting and the "land deeds"... or the way bills are passed.
Aliasi Stonebender: and less prone to the group drama problem that so infests SL.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Frans Charming nods[/color]
Kanker Greenacre: so you guys don't have drama?
Sudane Erato: lol
Eelco Byrne: hahaha
Sudane Erato: plenty
Aliasi Stonebender: I think right now, Neualtenburg could survive very well with the removal of any random people, even the "old school" people
Aliasi Stonebender: Oh, we have plenty of drama
Aliasi Stonebender: but we get it out in established debate
Flyingroc Chung: They have political drama, I think.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that's it, Flyingroc
Aliasi Stonebender: and none of the "I"M PULLING TEIR TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME!!!!122"
Sudane Erato: true
Osprey Therian: I'd like an example of what the RA might be set as a task
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, threatening to leave Neualtenburg is even constitutionally forbidden
Kanker Greenacre: hehe, but what's to stop someone from threatening to leave?
Aliasi Stonebender: In return, Neualtenburg can't threaten to just dump you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ie. you can leave — but not THREATEN to leave)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, an example — setting the budget, for instance.
Aliasi Stonebender: Well Kanker
Flyingroc Chung: So how does one go about the process of joining nberg?
Aliasi Stonebender: the response to threatening to leave would be, in the most extreme example, to make the threat a non-issue.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: By buying land and signing a deed, Flyingroc
Aliasi Stonebender: Yep
Aliasi Stonebender: In fact, there's a sample deed in the notecards handed out
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Flyingroc Chung: oh right, private sim. Who's the estate owner?
Aliasi Stonebender: We have a system where a no-mod copy is kept on file in the Rathaus, our governmental building
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Flyinroc: the City is the estate owner
Sudane Erato: the estate owner is my alt
Aliasi Stonebender: The owner of record, avatar-wise, is Rudeen Edo, which is, as said, Sudane's alt.
Flyingroc Chung: I mean, who's crdit card is paying for it all?
Sudane Erato: technically
Flyingroc Chung: whose, even
Kage Seraph: Why the strong attachment to classical bavarian architecture and theme? Seems like that would be limiting.
Aliasi Stonebender: Neualtenburg's.
Sudane Erato: the credit card is actually a debit card
<b><u>Sudane Erato</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Phyzz Fizz 95m South . [/color]
Sudane Erato: attached to the NBurg Paypal account
Eelco Byrne: nifty
Gleeb Gupte is offline
Flyingroc Chung: and the nburg paypal account is accessible by....
Sudane Erato: me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kage: that's an example of something that's up to the citizens to decide.
Tanaer Edison is offline
Flyingroc Chung: ic
Aliasi Stonebender: yes. the provisions currently are "the treasurer", who is Sudane.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Appointed by the Guild...
Osprey Therian: The new exchange and the increase in avatars-per-sim in 1.7 should be helpful to projects like these.
Aliasi Stonebender: Indeed.
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Osprey
Aliasi Stonebender: it's helped a lto since those who pay their fees in L$ no longer have to deal with GOM fees.
Aliasi Stonebender: and the city itself thus has to deal with Paypal less, since those L$ can be converted to US$ and kept on account with LL.
Osprey Therian: You are laying the groundwork but in the future things will mesh more easily.
<b><u>Osprey Therian</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Elle Pollack 85m North (59m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, right now
Aliasi Stonebender: we're in the early stages. A lot of the decisions made by any fledgling RL government or organization, we're making right now.
Aliasi Stonebender: Now
Aliasi Stonebender: you asked why the Bavarian theme, kage.
Flyingroc Chung: how much land is currently for sale at nberg? and how much do you have to pay per month to hold land?
Aliasi Stonebender: I didn't mean to ignore you, just finishing that train of thought.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Kage Seraph nods[/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: FC: http://www.neualtenburg.org/services/land
Flyingroc Chung: yay, thanks
Aliasi Stonebender: Neualtenburg started as a project to utilize the then-new snow sims.
Aliasi Stonebender: The original proposal won out, and the city was built in Anzere sim.
Osprey Therian: It was romantic in all the misty snowy weather
Tryggvi Olafson: Augburg
Aliasi Stonebender: However, when the terms of the land deed ran out, it was decided to try the private sim idea. The current Neualtenburg is a copy of Anzere as it was.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, strictly speaking, there's no *current* reason for the Bavarian theme... but it makes us stand out. We can get more wacky with future sims.
Aliasi Stonebender: As it is, given we've actualyl attracted a lot of German-speaking folk with it, nobody's complaining.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Das ist wahr
Eelco Byrne: das stimmt
Gerami Fizz: I saw on one of the wikis that the bavarian theme was also to get away from the "rectangular" building style of SL as well?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Gerami.
Kage Seraph: Is this also to suggest that the artisans are limited to making innovative beer steins and lederhosen?
Aliasi Stonebender: Indeed, Neualtenburg was submitted in the recent competition LL had for localized "welcome areas".
Aliasi Stonebender: Not at all Kage
Aliasi Stonebender: the theme is a theme.
Aliasi Stonebender: My own build is outside the city proper, in the "valley"
Aliasi Stonebender: and isn't Bavarian in the least... it's the Dark Tower of Stephen King fame.
Kanker Greenacre: hehe
Philo Sion: nice
Aliasi Stonebender: and as for items for sale, you can sell anything you like... just ahve to get your vendor approved by the Guild (to keep down on laggy, ineffecently-scripted ones)
Eelco Byrne: hehehe , and that didnt raised any political issues
Eelco Byrne: ?
Aliasi Stonebender: Frex, I sell my "Nuke the Crap Out of the World" series of games in th egeneral store.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are actually two "covenants" for N'burg — inside the walls (a bit more restricted) and outside the walls (less restrictions)
Aliasi Stonebender: and if THAT didn't raise any issues...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: I was getting to the covenants.
Aliasi Stonebender: we actualyl have 3
Kage Seraph: I'm just trying to imagine selling giant mecha in a werkstatt.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, sorry!
Kage Seraph: =)
Eelco Byrne: lol
Aliasi Stonebender: the city, for all builds "inside the walls"
Aliasi Stonebender: which are very Bavarian.
Aliasi Stonebender: the "valley", which is a mixture but generally realistic in theme (no floating crystal palaces)
Aliasi Stonebender: and the NW corner, which is very loose.
Kanker Greenacre: where does the post-modernism come in?
Aliasi Stonebender: However, all vendors currently must be within the city walls.
Buttery Shortbread is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A bit here and there, Kanker... the bridge... the museum...
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, the art museum is under construction, the bridge
Aliasi Stonebender: the idea is taking the basic concept of a Bavarian village, and "modernizing" it, without actually eliminating the village.
Kanker Greenacre: no pm beerhalls?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have a Biergarten, yes
Aliasi Stonebender: Also
Kanker Greenacre: a post-modern biergarten?
Osprey Therian: must say good-bye, all - ty Aliasi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not quite.
Frans Charming: Bye Osprey
Aliasi Stonebender: any build, if judged necessary, can have certain provisions of the covenant waived by the Guild.
Aliasi Stonebender: For example, my own tower is slightly above the height limit. Being a tower and all.
Etain Peregrine is online
Aliasi Stonebender: But apparently I'm just gosh-darn likable.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Aliasi Stonebender: Similarly
Aliasi Stonebender: if you wanted to make a post-modern beerhall
Aliasi Stonebender: you could always float the idea.
Aliasi Stonebender: The covenant is the "default" set of guidelines
Aliasi Stonebender: not an absolute iron-clad law
Flyingroc Chung: only 1 script per 100sqm?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it would have a good possibility of getting accepted
Aliasi Stonebender: ione *active* script, FC.
Kage Seraph: big difference, that.
Flyingroc Chung: Oh thanks.... and it's FR
Aliasi Stonebender: Ah. sorry 'bout that, FR.
Aliasi Stonebender: you know, the r and c
Aliasi Stonebender: so close to each other.
Eelco Byrne: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Kanker Greenacre: how about f'ingroc?
Aliasi Stonebender: heh.
Flyingroc Chung: yay
Frans Charming: heh
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shudders*
Aliasi Stonebender: but ultimately, the point behind all of those restrictions
Aliasi Stonebender: is to prevent the selfish buildign that happens on the main grid
Aliasi Stonebender: nobody wants to prohibit truly interesting and beautiful work.
Eelco Byrne: the big pink walls and such?
Aliasi Stonebender: we just don't want random Tringo parlours and 100m pink walls, yes.
Philo Sion: yuck
Frans Charming:
Frans Charming: I want pink walls
Frans Charming:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahaha
Aliasi Stonebender: Oh, no problem with pink wals.
Eelco Byrne: had some probs with big pink walls
Aliasi Stonebender: just no 100m ones.
Aliasi Stonebender: 20m, you're fine.
Frans Charming: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: well
Kage Seraph: Who is the contact person for further discussing becoming a member?
Aliasi Stonebender: Sudane is who handle that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sudane Erato, for setting up land and the deeds....
Flyingroc Chung: dibs on the p110 lot. ; - )
Frans Charming: haha
Aliasi Stonebender: since she has to set up the land and deeds through Rudeen.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Aliasi Stonebender: sorry, taken.

Flyingroc Chung: aw
Aliasi Stonebender: well
Aliasi Stonebender: the OLD p110
Eelco Byrne: is it also possible to become memeber for the sole reason of contributing with building or such
Aliasi Stonebender: they did get renumbered, didnt' they...

Neualtenburg Civics Class Log - Part 3 of 3

Aliasi Stonebender: well Eelco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, there may be a slight difference between what's posted on the website Sorry about that, Ulrika mantains it, but she has a baby to care for as well...
Aliasi Stonebender: if you want to just work with the Guild, that's one thing.
Eelco Byrne: did ulrika multipy??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, *official* membership in the Guild is also only for citizens...
Frans Charming: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol Eelco, yes, she did
Aliasi Stonebender: but to be a full citizen, you must own land. It doesn't have to be much... the houses in the city go for about a dollar a month.
Eelco Byrne: omg
Frans Charming: there is a beautifull pic on the forum somewhere.
Aliasi Stonebender: (real dollar, of course, because LL expects us to pay in real US dollars.)
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Gwyneth Llewelyn is the smallest landowner in N'burg — lol[/color]
Eelco Byrne: thats indeed cheap
Eelco Byrne: hahah cheapskate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it's also a tiny home you get
Aliasi Stonebender: True, but even a tiny house is enough to be a citizen.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *and* it allows you to set up a few vendors
Aliasi Stonebender: indeed.
Frans Charming: ah
<b><u>Frans Charming</u></b>Tryggvi Olafson only needs space for a catbox[/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: the prices are a little odd compared to some of the other private sims for rental
Philo Sion: Do you become a technical landowner, by linden standards?
Aliasi Stonebender: but this is because being a citizen means you get to use all the public facilities too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, you become a full citizen, by Neualtenburg standards
Philo Sion: or is that an additional cxost?
Aliasi Stonebender: you can hold events on the Platz, have a vendor in the general store, etc, etc.
Philo Sion: ah so its 11 dollars a month
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Aliasi Stonebender: You can be a basic account holder and have land in N'burg.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don't pay tier in N'burg
Philo Sion: Ahh
<b><u>Philo Sion</u></b>Gerami Fizz suddenly becomes more interested[/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: As the land is technically goign to be owned by a group.
Aliasi Stonebender: For example
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Lucia Lumiere 92m West (40m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: My own land is held by "Stonebender Corp", which is me and two sock-puppet alts.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Shaomao Faulkland 90m North (4m up) . [/color]
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Ae Oe 89m North (32m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: this is a technical limitation of SL
Aliasi Stonebender: but it does mean you get out of payign tier
Philo Sion: Neat
Aliasi Stonebender: just get two friends who are willing to be a member in you rgroup
Aliasi Stonebender: and keep yourself as the only officer.
Logan Bauer is online
Aliasi Stonebender: So
Aliasi Stonebender: any other questions, since I did say I'd tackle them at the end.
Tryggvi Olafson: do you know if any of the current guildmembers are into avbuilding?
<b><u>Tryggvi Olafson</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Sabine Stonebender 95m South (8m up) . [/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, I do a little m'self.
Aliasi Stonebender: nothign fancy, just for me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Kendra does a bit of that as well
Aliasi Stonebender: ah, yes
Aliasi Stonebender: Kendra has a really cool "metropolis" robot avvy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's true
Tryggvi Olafson: coool
Frans Charming: the gold one?
<b><u>Frans Charming</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Keiyra Bunyip 95m North (15m up) . [/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
Philo Sion: y
Tryggvi Olafson: <==is working on 1st av project
Frans Charming: More a steampunk automaton
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kendra is a bi fan of steampunk...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *big
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, Kendra had a steampunk shop on the main grid, but I havent' gone to check and see fi it's still up.
Aliasi Stonebender: had a nice "babbage engine" style computer.
Kanker Greenacre: if you guys get a second sim, would you continue on with a classical theme?
<b><u>Kanker Greenacre</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Kitten Lulu 78m North (11m up) . [/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She made some weird things, like steam-powered snow buggies, or something, for last Christmas....
Aliasi Stonebender: Well Kanker, we're still debating that.
Eelco Byrne: hehehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, nothing definitive yet, Kanker.
<b><u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: dbb15abe-5009-4c32-a331-e5323632adfe 29m East . [/color]
<b><u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Eean Faddoul 29m East . [/color]
Flyingroc Chung: well, I'd like to join nberg.
Aliasi Stonebender: Some would like to continue the Bavarian theme, although perhaps with the "valley" covenant on a larger portion of the sim. others want something from another culture.
Tryggvi Olafson: classical architacture would be interesting
Aliasi Stonebender: and me, I'm pulling for totally wacko.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm, yes
Aliasi Stonebender: PURPLE GROUND FOR ALL!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaha
Frans Charming: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: now
Kanker Greenacre: do you envision scrapping the bavarian theme at any point?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd love a Roman Republic theme ...
Aliasi Stonebender: on a land-owning note
Aliasi Stonebender: if you look on the website list
Tryggvi Olafson: : )
Aliasi Stonebender: all "p280" lots
Aliasi Stonebender: are "prim farm" lots
Kitten Lulu: Hi there, Am I late?
Aliasi Stonebender: cheaper than the normal ones
Aliasi Stonebender: but you cannot have anythign but trees on them.. they're for use with people who have small city plots
Aliasi Stonebender: and want more prims
Aliasi Stonebender: thus
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kanker: it all depends on the current citizens, really. The ones that are around, are mostly"for" a Bavarian theme. But as the population changes, the taste changes as well, so, everything *could* be possible.
Aliasi Stonebender: we have parkspace that also gets a kind of use.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Carbon Sachs 140m South . [/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Kitten — yes, you're about 90 minutes late
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes
Aliasi Stonebender: I myself don't care too much about the theme.
Aliasi Stonebender: It's grown on me though.
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm here more for the governmental aspects
Kage Seraph: Is it possible to buy contiguous lots and aggregate them?
Logan Bauer is offline
Flyingroc Chung: um, any plans for a second sim, or was that discussed already?
Aliasi Stonebender: I sure hope so.
Aliasi Stonebender: given I did that.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Kage Seraph grins[/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: FR: yes, we're planning on the second sim around January, if all goes according to plan.
Aliasi Stonebender: (the three lots p110, 120, and 150 on the graphical map are all mine, combined into one)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which means, we haven't decided anything *yet*
Aliasi Stonebender: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: right now
Aliasi Stonebender: our finances are still in the red inso far as we still owe the money lent to the city for the initial purchase of the sim
Aliasi Stonebender: however
Aliasi Stonebender: we have a steadily increasing budget surplus
Aliasi Stonebender: so we expect that to be cleared soonish.
Flyingroc Chung: yay budget surplus. do you tax your content sellers?
Flyingroc Chung: ie a sales tax?
Aliasi Stonebender: Not at this time.
Eelco Byrne: so even state debt u intergrated
Aliasi Stonebender: It's possible one could get passed, but believe me, I'd be one of the loudest voices against.
Neualtenburg Documents whispers: Vending Neualtenburg Documents
<b><u>Neualtenburg Documents whispers</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Beauty Talamasca 74m North (16m up) . [/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are provisions on the Constitution for doing sales taxes, but right now, there aren't any.
Aliasi Stonebender: That said, we do intend to have further means of income other than straight land-use revenue, we briefly experimented with a casino, but it didn't pan out very well.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, Eelco. Right now, for instance, we're discussing issuing bonds...
Eelco Byrne: cool
Flyingroc Chung: casino didnt pan out?
Tryggvi Olafson: too much competition
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, although we're unlikely to actually issue any. We just have a bill under discussion to formalize what we WOULD offer.
Aliasi Stonebender: Well
Aliasi Stonebender: the casino was a "retro casino" with the first SL casino games.
Flyingroc Chung: ah
Aliasi Stonebender: but it was (a) laggy, since they were ancient scripts
Aliasi Stonebender: and (b) didn't bring in any real money.
Kanker Greenacre: and (c) a casino
Eelco Byrne: lol
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Kitten Lulu: Given your bavarian theme, have you considered partnership with any Bavarian real-world institution. Maybe a municipality would like to sponsor your work in exchange of -for example- promotion to increase tourism.
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, we had some protests when we suggested making a new one. currently, Kendra is discussing plans to have on on her *private* land.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Leto Lehane 195m West (13m up) . [/color]
Tryggvi Olafson: you could sell prims to stupid people...
Aliasi Stonebender: BUt that would not be city income, and Which would of course be under the same script restrictions as anyone else, thusly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry, I have my computer overheating, lol — I have to log off for a bit
Aliasi Stonebender: And that is an excellent idea.
Aliasi Stonebender: which means either you or I need to suggest it on the forum.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was an excellent meeting, Aliasi, thank you very much for hosting it!
Kitten Lulu: uh?
Aliasi Stonebender: /103/1.html
Kitten Lulu: which idea? switching off our computers *winks*?
Aliasi Stonebender: is the Neualtenburg Prokect forum.
Frans Charming: hehe
Aliasi Stonebender: the Bavarian community association, idea.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Kage Seraph departs for N'burg for a bit.[/color]
Kitten Lulu: oh, I know EU municipalities... if they have some surplus budget, they like all sorts of partnership
Frans Charming: bye kage
Kanker Greenacre: how about getting Busch Gardens to sponsor your sim?
Aliasi Stonebender: That, I think, would get rather less support.
Tanaer Edison is online
Tryggvi Olafson: thank you Aliasi...much food for thought
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, approaching a German brewery to plaster their logo on our beer kegs, you could always suggest that.
Frans Charming: hehe
Deevyde Maelstrom is online
Kanker Greenacre: i bet they'd throw a couple L$s your way
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm glad you all enjoyed it. Unless y'all want to just chat around, I'd say we've covered it all.
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Stinky Queso 85m West (45m up) . [/color]
<b><u>Aliasi Stonebender</u></b>Frans Charming Applauds[/color]
Gerami Fizz: I'm more SL-savvy now!
<b><u>Gerami Fizz</u></b>Guardian Angel v2.0: Detected: Hello Kitty 85m East (31m up) . [/color]
Jackal Ennui: thanks aliasi, that was very interesting
Aliasi Stonebender: Your Area KnowledgeL skill has increased(13)!
Gerami Fizz: w00t!
Flyingroc Chung: woohoo!
<b><u>Flyingroc Chung</u></b>Aliasi Stonebender grins.[/color]
Jackal Ennui: *lol*
Kitten Lulu: Aliasi, you are going to put the log on the forum, right? I lost almost all of it
Kanker Greenacre: i know about 20x more about n'berg now
Aliasi Stonebender: Hm
Aliasi Stonebender: I might have to do that, yes.
Eelco Byrne: thnx Aliasi for all the info
Frans Charming: that's quick gwen
Frans Charming: lol
Eelco Byrne: poof
Kanker Greenacre: bye everyone, and thanks aliasi
Shelaura Tomba is online
Aliasi Stonebender: gah
Aliasi Stonebender: anyone know how I can quickly select the whole log?
Frans Charming: Bye everyone, and thanks again aliasi.
Frans Charming: ya
Aliasi Stonebender: select all seems to not be working...
Frans Charming: ctrl-a

Formatted and colorized with transcript.

Good talk. Thanks for posting the log.

Wow great job Aliasi. Sorry I couldn't be there. I know who I'll be voting for next term