Deleted and Locked Thread

I've deleted and locked a thread started by flyingroc Chung.

The first was an incitement to others to crash the Neualtenburg using a scripted prim in retaliation for posts made by me in the Off-Topic forum. The second was a complaint about the deletion of the first thread that included additional complaints about two more citizens.

These threads were deleted and locked to prevent general trolling and spill over from controversies in the external forums from spreading here.

There are a lot of issues to discus:

1. Do N'burg laws apply to conduct outside of N'burg? If so, do we pass laws restricting what one can and can't say?
   
2. Was the deletion of a thread that invited individuals to crash the sim acceptable? Do we want trolling in our otherwise well-moderated forum?
   
3. What should the official procedure be for handling external complaints and questionable threads?

~Ulrika~

Nice, your hypocrisy shines bright.

Do N'burg laws apply to conduct outside of N'burg? If so, do we pass laws restricting what one can and can't say?

-I strongly disagree about passing laws restricting what one can and can't say. Everyone has the right to an opinion. Neualtenburg issues stay in Neualtenburg.

Was the deletion of a thread that invited individuals to crash the sim acceptable? Do we want trolling in our otherwise well-moderated forum?

-Threatening the sim is unacceptable. I believe that post was offensive and potentially harmful...the neualtenburg forums are used to:

-- distribute the task of answering questions among many people.
-- get to know each other in order to promote informed voting.
-- discuss present and future city policies.
-- answer questions and address concerns.

-Negative comments about Neualtenburg can be placed elsewhere... NOT in the Neualtenburg forums.

What should the official procedure be for handling external complaints and questionable threads?

-If a forum thread is found offensive/harmful/inappropiate to a citizen of Neualtenburg, one can report the thread to one of the forum moderators. A meeting should be held sometime that week to discuss the thread or the thread can be added to the RA meeting agenda. If a meeting cannot be created an "in forum" meeting will take place.

- Eugene

On the matter of a citizen inviting personages to crash our cooperatively held property? That's a fairly serious matter I think. I did not get the chance to see this post, but if the deletion of that citizen's invitation is the only sanction, I'd say at this point that's all one should do. If it goes beyond that, however, I'd take it VERY seriously.

On the other issues:

1) Are we back this one again? I recall an attept once to silence me from speaking out about RL politics because my profile in N'burg was large enough to confuse people into thinking MY beliefs were those of N'burg's. I would be strongly against sanctioning of speech outside (or inside N'burg). My only possible exception being calls to do harm to the "state", or one of it's citizens.

2) I would say deletion of an invitation for other's to harm our cooperative, is not only warranted but advisable. Though the possibility for griefing remains possible with or without invitation.

3) I'd say that there should be a distinction between forum moderation and inworld activity. I'd also suggest that since the SC and the AC have moderator status on this forum, it might be good for the RA to vote on a their candidate to represent forum moderation.

Y'know that quote I have in my sig currently, Ulrika?

Yeah.

I wouldn't dream of restricting your right to say whatever you feel. But you have to accept the consequences of such, whatever that may be.

One of those consequences is people strongly associate anything you say with Neualtenburg. Given your position as the sole voting member of the SC, not to mention major progenitor of the whole project, it's not a totally incorrect one, really.

Act like an ass, people won't feel welcome here. I don't give a damn - while I find little use for an attitude such as yours, neither does it particularly discomfort me.

Doesn't mean you can't say your piece, but it's just as easy to beat someone around the head with cold fact than it is to insult them and "oh, it's alright because I put a SMILEY THERE! ".

So says me.

You raise a valid point and makes me pause to think this through a bit here.

Should we consider personal "unpopular" views expressed to the forums at large to be detrimental to the "state"?

It is the question raised by Flyingroc --and now in a way you.

I'd be interested in seeing what the rest of the citizenry thinks. Should we stifle "free speech" for the "good of the state". My personal feeling is that this would be for lack of a better term --incredibly icky.

I would like to discuss the drafting of a Bill of Rights which would include free speech in the Neualtenburg forums.


I thought it was satire, but it seems the humor was lost on you.


It was also an appeal for restraint, and the use of good judgement when posting, bearing in mind that Ulrika is not just a normal SL resident, Ulrika is also a living symbol of Neualtenburg.


Maybe we need to draft a code of conduct for officials of Neualtenburg's government? Or maybe we should just elect representatives with more prudence... but a seat in the SC is not an elected position, isnt it?


Was the locking of a thread that invited individuals to destroy bibles acceptable? Do we want our forums to be moderated by a forum troll?


Indeed.

No it's not elected. But it IS impeachable.

I'm not suggesting stifling free speech a'tall. That suggests coercion, and I believe I've repeatedly made my views on that point clear.

Rather, I think all involved should think their actions through; nothing is without consequence; weigh up the benefits of each course of action and see which you prefer.

But then, I tend to see things in a pragmatic, survialistic manner. I refuse to compromise my beliefs, but those largely consist of "leave me the hell alone unless I ask, and I'll return the favor." And while I'd ask if alienating every possible new citizen that comes along is worth spouting my top, I cannot make that decision for Ulrika, and I've long since made my decision in regards to Neualtenburg - I'm here until you kick me out, the sim closes down, or I simply can't afford it.

For my part, I'll take that under advisement.

Just my 2 cents:

as an internet forum is a bpublic area everybody is allowed to say his opinion as long as it does not violate laws (I mean RL laws). (->free speech)

It is not acceptable to delete any post just because someone does not like its content.

Mel

This is called the categorical imperative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_Imperative

Mel

Thank you , but that wasn't exactly the point...?

I do believe that Ulrika, Kendra, and the RA members represent Neualtenburg even when they are posting personal opinions in other forums because of their association with the project (whether they like that or not). I also strongly agree with Aliasi's opinion about actions and their consequences. I don't believe in stifling free speech, but if increasing the population of N'burg is a stated goal, then you would be wise to limit provocative rhetoric which could alienate many possible citizens. My own feelings are similar to Aliasi's, it is hard to ruffle my feathers, but I am also not entirely comfortable with the association being made in the forums between opinions expressed and image of Neualtenburg.

I strongly agree with Aliasi, and strongly disagree with posts being locked or deleted by one person without larger discussion.

I don't think we should limit what members of Neualt can say in the forums, but there are some people so strongly identified with Neualtenburg that people think their opinions reflect on the whole project. Also if an RA member was being crazy in the Off-Topic forums I highly doubt they would be voted back in, but when you have the luxury of a lifetime appointment, you have the luxury of saying whatever you want. Perhaps the problem is the lifetime appointments.

But maybe the larger point just revolves around self reflection. Think of the leading trolls on the forums, and how many projects of thiers do you want to be a part of?

I think Satch raises VERY good points. Especially about those who can be elected and those that cannot.. and therefore how it affects speech.

I have defended Neualt.. and even Ulrika.. for well over a year now in the forums and various outside blogs..

I do not believe that we have the right as a government to tell our citizens what they can and cannot say.. especially when it has NOTHING to do with our city..

That said, I also understand how reps of any branch of the government can be held to standards.

And we are no longer the only government in SL. As Kendra and I learned at the SLCC. We are up againt *at least* two other projects, that are more liked due to having a "nicer face" I'm sure.

Ulrika. I've always adored you. I would NEVER tell you to stop speaking your mind. I want you to be you and that is the best I can ask for. But yes, it will affect Neualt. It always has, and it always will. As an RA member I would vote No against regulating speech in the forums.. I see Eugene would as well.. but there are still 3 other RAs

Ulrika, people don't get you. I'm so simple really, but I do *get* you. You make me think, laugh, and cry. hehe.. But our city has been under attack because of you as much as it has been praised by you. For that I have no solution. =(

ONLY that I will continue to act according to our constitution and my position as LRA. I love this city, and I'm not about to go anywhere.

I do. Stay tuned. The wheels are in motion.

~Ulrika~

I just locked the "Resignation" thread due to noncitizens continuing to post and a steady stream of ARs from noncitizens who disliked the personal attacks in the thread and wanted it closed. Hopefully that will be the end of the non-N'burg drama that's leaked into our forum.

~Ulrika~

I'm going to be very aggressive about locking non-citizen posts and threads over the next few days. I don't want this wonderfully productive forum destroyed by a few attention-seeking griefers (that's what Off-Topic is for). All moderations will of course be subject to review and absolutely reversible (no permanent deletions or locks).

~Ulrika~

I locked another thread started by a noncitizen. I've contacted [email]forummaster@secondlife.com[/email] about the repeated trolling, asking for a permaban and possible disciplinary action. I'll keep you informed.

~Ulrika~